Knockdown?

[Mikara]

Simply put, I think they were trying to give fighters a powerful weapon vs casters in NWN PvP. The combat is quite different on many areas from PnP... bullrush, grapple, trip, sunder, sap (which was originally planed for NWN1 but removed), intimidate, are all not available in NWN that would be tactical options in PnP.

In PnP, a strong PC can grapple an unprepared caster and it's pretty damn effective as well, if you think about it. And grapple (and it's Improved version) can actually do damage, which KD can't.

That makes sense. It still would be fairly effective though even with a touch roll. Lose one attack a round for a chance at a one round stun. Right now it is more or less lose one attack a round for a one round stun.

[Ithildur]

BTW, if a DM is involved and it makes sense from a RP sense, if I can't KD a wizard for whatever reason and I have no other options, I will request that I be allowed to attempt a grapple attack.

One of THE coolest RP moments on a RP PW I've ever heard about happened when a dwarven leader sacrificed his life to save his granddaughter. He accomplished this by bullrush/grappling a drow priestess/assassin into a lake and causing both of them to drown, even as he was on the brink of death. It was a permadeath server too... not a bad way to go for an honorable dwarf imo.

So even in PnP, if a strong PC gets in close to a wizard that let's him get close, it's not a good deal for the wizard. He'd better pray he has some non somatic component/still spells prepped if he gets grappled.

[GodBeastX]

<--- Allows grapples

[Ithildur]

Just realized too... I'll bet that knockdown doesn't work properly against casters that have death armor or elemental shileld on... since the KD does no damage, I'll be willing to bet that the spells will not harm ther KDer... when quite obviously at least elemental shield should since it's supposed to damage 'any creature striking you with its body or a handheld weapon' per the SDR d20 rules.

I'll going to test this sometime, but I'll bet this is the case. Maybe KD really does need to be worked over.

[GodBeastX]

Just realized too... I'll bet that knockdown doesn't work properly against casters that have death armor or elemental shileld on... since the KD does no damage, I'll be willing to bet that the spells will not harm ther KDer... when quite obviously at least elemental shield should since it's supposed to damage 'any creature striking you with its body or a handheld weapon' per the SDR d20 rules.

I'll going to test this sometime, but I'll bet this is the case. Maybe KD really does need to be worked over.

KD does... it needs to be a touch attack. If it was a touch attack, I'd have no problem with spamming it.

[Cheatcake]

*flais arms around* Unnarmed only!

[Ithildur]

*flais arms around* Unnarmed only!

No, forget the unarmed; one of the most classic moves by an intelligent meleer is getting the opponent off balance and helpless or near helpless, but they would never drop or sheath their weapon to do that. Trip provokes an AOO anyway; perhaps make it like trip if you're going to go touch attack.

One observation: making it a touch attack (finessable iirc) gives an advantage to high dex/finess meleers and puts the heavy armor reliant STR guys at a disadvantage, since touch AC would be higher for the high DEX guys most of the time... Another shift of balance but imo this isn't such a bad thing as NWN2 combat favors power/STR builds in melee anyway.

I'd love to see disarm fixed too, but crap... as I said before, this can get endless.

[Cheatcake]

No, I won't forget the unnarmed It's the greatest unbalancing point on Knockdown vs Trip. If people want to talk about things wrong on Knockdown, that's the main thing, not if it's spammable (you can spam it on PnP) or if it doesn't causes an attack of oportunity (Trip only does because you're going unnarmed, if you have Improved Unnarmed or Improved Trip you don't cause one, so it would work fine in NWN2) The biggest difference is when people can knock you down and proceed to attack while having a weapon not suited at all to trip someone, like the chained one or hooked polearms

PS: It is supposed to be a touch attack. I think people imagine Trip/Knockdown wrong. It's pushing someone down to the floor. In which way would having heavy armor help in avoid being pushed? If we go into "realism", it would make it harder to don't fall down

[GodBeastX]

No, forget the unarmed; one of the most classic moves by an intelligent meleer is getting the opponent off balance and helpless or near helpless, but they would never drop or sheath their weapon to do that. Trip provokes an AOO anyway; perhaps make it like trip if you're going to go touch attack.

One observation: making it a touch attack (finessable iirc) gives an advantage to high dex/finess meleers and puts the heavy armor reliant STR guys at a disadvantage, since touch AC would be higher for the high DEX guys most of the time... Another shift of balance but imo this isn't such a bad thing as NWN2 combat favors power/STR builds in melee anyway.

I'd love to see disarm fixed too, but crap... as I said before, this can get endless.

Why should someone be able to knockdown everyone?

"I'm blind and can't see! However, if I use a Knockdown I don't have to see!"

Or

"You're flipping around so fast I can't touch you! However, if I knock you down then I don't have to be able to touch you!"

The list goes on

It's stupid and negates anything to do with vision or ability to actually come in contact with something.

[Ithildur]

Why should someone be able to knockdown everyone?

"I'm blind and can't see! However, if I use a Knockdown I don't have to see!"

Or

"You're flipping around so fast I can't touch you! However, if I knock you down then I don't have to be able to touch you!"

The list goes on

It's stupid and negates anything to do with vision or ability to actually come in contact with something.

??? I'm not sure what you're responding to here... who said anything about being able to knock down everything??

[Ithildur]

No, I won't forget the unnarmed It's the greatest unbalancing point on Knockdown vs Trip. If people want to talk about things wrong on Knockdown, that's the main thing, not if it's spammable (you can spam it on PnP) or if it doesn't causes an attack of oportunity (Trip only does because you're going unnarmed, if you have Improved Unnarmed or Improved Trip you don't cause one, so it would work fine in NWN2) The biggest difference is when people can knock you down and proceed to attack while having a weapon not suited at all to trip someone, like the chained one or hooked polearms

PS: It is supposed to be a touch attack. I think people imagine Trip/Knockdown wrong. It's pushing someone down to the floor. In which way would having heavy armor help in avoid being pushed? If we go into "realism", it would make it harder to don't fall down

Ok.. I see. I misunderstood your 'Make it an unarmed attack'.

I said make it like trip, with an AOO (because it's treated as an unarmed attack), but the PC does not actually put away his weapon and isn't unarmed in that sense.

Trip doesn't mean you're actually unarmed while attempting the trip; for some reason I was picturing you calling for the attacker not being able to use his weapon for a certain duration if he attempts a trip.

Actually, you can use some weapons to make an armed trip attack anyway, can't you? But that's beyond reasonable amount of redoing the feat.

One more to keep in mind... tripping does not require taking a feat in PnP. Anyone can do it. If Improved trip is implemented as the replacement for Knockdown, that would seem to work, but the prereqs would need to be changed. Improved trip has something actually neither KD or Improved KD in NWN2 have, as you get a free followup attack rightaway.

How about if the prereqs for IKD were simply upgraded to be the same as Improved Trip? And get rid of KD.

[Rannarix]

I admire you for taking the road of balancing things out. Once you start, you never stop.

[Anauroch]

The journey is the reward.

[Rannarix]

The journey is a pain in the ass.

[Ithildur]

IMPROVED TRIP

[GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise.
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent.
If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn't used your attack for the trip attempt.
Normal: Without this feat, you provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed.
Special: At 6th level, a monk may select Improved Trip as a bonus feat, even if she does not have the prerequisites.
A fighter may select Improved Trip as one of his fighter bonus feats.



Sounds a lot like Improved Knockdown, except that you don't get the bonus of a NWN knocked down creature being essentially pinned/grappled as well for one round... but you also get a free attack that will do dmg, which KD or IKD doesn't grant.

So here's an idea. Get rid of regular KD, perhaps consider IKD as a powerful combination of Imp Trip and a weaker version of Grapple, and make the prereqs for it similar to that of Imp Trip plus Imp Grapple (you'd need INT13, DEX13, Expertize, Imp Unarmed Strike) or something along those lines... basicly you'd not be able to munchkin all your stats into str and get KD at lvl 1, or spend just one feat to get IKD anymore; you need 2 feats (one of which most people would seldom pick) PLUS INT 13 and DEX 13. So in order to do this you'd need a fairly smart and dextrous PC who'd have lower STR accordingly and may not be able to have as much success as a STR34 DEX10 INT8 PC does with KD or IKD. Plus the cost of two feats, one which would rarely be used.

Call it... Improved Tripdown, or Bastardized Triprapple, or Monks Delight... :P

That would seem like less reworking of scripts and more in line with PnP without overly complicating things, and still keeping in mind the balance vs NWN version of bigsby's and Harm, etc.

[edit] I forgot, it would still be broken/unbalanced vs concealment and fireshield... so I guess to be really exact these elements at least would have to be rescripted... Why do I get the feeling some of it might be hardcoded? At least the prereqs should be easy to change I should think.