Knockdown?

[Mikara]

Goodness 3 pages in an hour. I can see this is quite the thorny topic and I didn't mean to be calling for a nerf or something like that. Just wondered if I could buy a "potion of stone" or something to deal with it.

As it stands I have a spell in my book that halves movespeed and makes you immune to knockback, but I cannot memorize it for some reason.

[Ithildur]

The irony is Mikara, if you'd gotten off a Harm against me and instakilled me, I might've thought 'damn obsidian, broke the spell and made it impossible to miss' and been unhappy, but I wouldn't have started ranting about it... at least I hope not. And I'm not saying you are; it's all these other people that are jumping in saying this or that with no idea of what actually happened.

Hmm... just in case though, in the spirit of things, maybe it'd be a good idea for me to go and write up a draft of future complaints about Bigsby's/Harm/KD/Disarm/HIPS/etc etc that people might use against me and kill me.

[Jhiroth]

Hmm.

Size spells do not add a size bonus to KD in NWN2; I'm 99% sure Enlargement is broken that way so unless you're playing an ogre as a PC, it's not going to help you.

I am almost 99% certain you are incorrect on this. I am at work or I'd test it. Any volunteers?

But yeah, Improved KD is uh...funny. Not funny haha, but funny peculiar. So is a few others, and yes, I agree RDD is 100% cheese.

[Ithildur]

I am almost 99% certain you are incorrect on this. I am at work or I'd test it. Any volunteers?

But yeah, Improved KD is uh...funny. Not funny haha, but funny peculiar. So is a few others, and yes, I agree RDD is 100% cheese.

Jhiroth, I've tested it. It's been a while and it's possible I'm forgetting and getting this wrong, but I'm almost positive I remember using enlargement and trying to knock something down and not seeing the bonus, and thinking 'OE misimplemented yet another spell'..

Now Improved Knockdowning say a dragon, which I've seen people do, does seem ridiculous, but if someone does it (it's virtually impossible against older dragons iirc anyway) and succeeds once out of 40 attempts... *shrugs*

[Jhiroth]

Jhiroth, I've tested it. It's been a while and it's possible I'm forgetting and getting this wrong, but I'm almost positive I remember using enlargement and trying to knock something down and not seeing the bonus, and thinking 'OE misimplemented yet another spell'..

Definitely possible, they dropped the ball on so many other things, this wouldn't surprise me.

Hmm... just in case though, in the spirit of things, maybe it'd be a good idea for me to go and write up a draft of future complaints about Bigsby's/Harm/KD/Disarm/HIPS/etc etc that people might use against me and kill me.

FWIW I agree with almost all of those being....suspect in terms of balance. Definitely about Harm, KD, Bigby's. The other two not so much as you can take ranks in certain skills for HIPS and you can get a nodrop weapon to deal with disarm. If I recall.

[thorandike]

The irony is Mikara, if you'd gotten off a Harm against me and instakilled me, I might've thought 'damn obsidian, broke the spell and made it impossible to miss' and been unhappy, but I wouldn't have started ranting about it... at least I hope not. And I'm not saying you are; it's all these other people that are jumping in saying this or that with no idea of what actually happened.

Hmm... just in case though, in the spirit of things, maybe it'd be a good idea for me to go and write up a draft of future complaints about Bigsby's/Harm/KD/Disarm/HIPS/etc etc that people might use against me and kill me.

Wow. Let's all just take a deep breath... Honestly Ithildur, I dont' see anyone in this thread ranting or complaining about your actions. All I see is everyone agreeing that knockdown is broken, but I don't think we can "forbid" using it in PvP. It is just part of the game as it was scripted, so we'll have to go with what we've got.

Now, if you are getting PMs with people ranting then that's just sort of lame of them. Let's just focus on the discussion about knockdown and not pick fights here people.

[Mikara]

The irony is Mikara, if you'd gotten off a Harm against me and instakilled me, I might've thought 'damn obsidian, broke the spell and made it impossible to miss' and been unhappy, but I wouldn't have started ranting about it... at least I hope not. And I'm not saying you are; it's all these other people that are jumping in saying this or that with no idea of what actually happened.

Yes, it was still a fun incident, I'm just wondering if my future as a fearsome cleric of Shar is going to be lying on my back 90% of the time in which case I could have just become a fearsome harlot of Shar and saved alot of trouble.

And there may be other broken abilities I just don't know about. Being honest with myself I suppose this post was a sort of half-rant in that I expect there to be *some* defense to certain things. Instant death spells give you a chance with saving throws/touch attack. Damage gives you a chance with armour class. Had I been knocked down/interrupted half the fight I would have thought "Nice ability. Better avoid big fighters" In this case I was down 7 or 8 rounds straight through high armor class and concealment. It just seemed..odd. So I came to the boards looking for advice.

[Ithildur]

One thing I completely agree with that is simply broken without excuse, is concealment not offering any protection against KD. If this is indeed true, I may simply decide not to use it at all on opponents that are concealed at least 50%... that is extraordinarily broken if that's the case.

I'll suggest one thing I'd do if I'm playing a smaller and physically unimposing (low str/low dex) caster creature and am provoking towards combat a larger sized PC that may have knockdown... I mean, it's really not that different from real life... don't taunt the bigger guy 5 feet in front of you unless you know you're strong/dextrous enough to have a good chance to avoid the knockdown, and are prepared with spells that can do nasty things to the guy.

btw, I didn't even have a chance to rightclick examine your PC. I assumed you were a cleric or wizard of mid to midhigh lvl from the shadow summon and figured you'd hit me with an instadeath as soon as you got a chance... Harm doesn't have a save and it's broken that it doesn't even require a touch attack... I generally expect a quick death from evil clerics if I don't take them down fast.

[Anauroch]

One thing I completely agree with that is simply broken without excuse, is concealment not offering any protection against KD. If this is indeed true, I may simply decide not to use it at all on opponents that are concealed at least 50%... that is extraordinarily broken if that's the case.

On the nwn2 wiki (*points to the link quite a few posts above*) it does say quite clearly that concealment is just ignored.

[Ethereal Edge]

The fact is that it more seems that, Ithildur, that knockdown is broken. I also highly advise you don't constantly use it, either, but that's my personal opinion. I can understand mages are dangerous and that Mikara's actions are pretty unbecoming as a follower of Shar (no offense, but she's about trickery and stealth, not flaunting her presence) but you were fighting an effortless opponent to add to things.

Just saying, but if you've already got heat for these things don't let me bring you down. I didn't read everything.

[thorandike]

but you were fighting an effortless opponent to add to things.

Wouldn't it be metagaming to know that? She picked a fight that it sounds to me like she would have lost regardless. Not that losing a fight can't be fun too.

[Ethereal Edge]

It wouldn't be metagaming to consider that in PvP in my opinion. In some servers combat against effortless PCs is outright banned. It's not hard to understand why, but I highly doubt Sundren will ever have that atmosphere.

[Mikara]

The fact is that it more seems that, Ithildur, that knockdown is broken. I also highly advise you don't constantly use it, either, but that's my personal opinion. I can understand mages are dangerous and that Mikara's actions are pretty unbecoming as a follower of Shar (no offense, but she's about trickery and stealth, not flaunting her presence) but you were fighting an effortless opponent to add to things.

I certainly wasn't expecting any leniency because I was weaker. Jandi is a egomaniacal fanatic, with a great big mouth that constantly lands her in trouble. She's not really a very effective follower of Shar either (shes not clever or charismatic enough to be very tricky) And while stealth and trickery are aspects of the Shar persona I read up, the goddess also appreciates brute force and particularly vengeance and open humiliation. These are the emotions Jandi tries to trigger.

I just hope I don't have to metagame and can be free to terrorize and sow disorder amongst other players whether they are level 2 or level 20. I also don't mind Corwin keeping me flat from the thought if I got one spell off he might die, which was sort of true as I might have used a destruction scroll I had...

The reason I bring this up here (and its another thread topic I suppose) is that there has been a suggestion or two that I should mollify my IC evilness as it might hurt the OOC tender feelings of other players. Or don't assault low level characters as it might not be a fair fight. How would Jandi know any of this? I hope everyone is mature enough to give free reign to IC drama and violence. That means confronting some vile thoughts that evil people have. At the end of the day we take off all our masks and are friends, and that is never in doubt I hope. This is all just play and exploration after all.

[Ithildur]

Again, I did not even get a chance to examine her; I saw the PC trailing a shadow and thought she was fairly high lvl.

The circumstance surrounding the pvp was also a factor - normally I try to avoid PvP as it's not my idea of the most fun thing to do on a RP server; corwin had been rebuking an elf that insisted that there was nothing evil about turning dead creatures into undead (which is among the more abhorrent things among most elves) and the PC in question came trotting along with the shadow in tow, and having overheard him saying these things, began to taunt him, stating (in front of guards to mind you) that she had just raised a dead humanoid as the shadow and taunting Corwin. He gave her a warning to release the shadow and when she refused and continued to taunt him I did what I felt was an appropriate response especially given what he'd just said... again without knowing what lvl she was, expecting that she might hit me with an instadeath spell. I figured that it was either get at least a few knockdowns in or face a quick death, being unbuffed as I was at the moment... didn't expect that she'd go down as often as she did, rather surprised me until i remembered afterwards she's a size smaller.

My general approach based on past experiences, PvP vs evil cleric = a quick death; don't mess around, kill them as fast as possible.

I appreciated the fact the player behind the PC fully expected PvP and wasn't upset about the results... I would have hesitated if I'd known she was effortless actually, which would have been metagamish, but I generally don't like to do that; I have been on the other end of slaughter by much higher lvl PCs and it can feel cheap.

[Ethereal Edge]

Just putting a point forward.