A heads up on the level cap changes..

[GodBeastX]

Embrace change People may not realize where all these cap changes came from, but back in the day cats would hit level 20 in 4 days, no lie. That's why caps and changes have been made in the first place. Changes aren't always permanent but they're there for your benefits.

[Verrath]

I've heard of this guy.... I thought he was just a story.

[Thief Of Navarre]

We will see how things pan out; Im not going to moan anymore till I come up with something concrete to moan about!

GBX is right I think.. *does a double take after seeing him* Huh?

[Kaeldorn]

Please also take into consideration, as Saulus already brought up once before, that being at your cap doesn't equal no advancement. You still progress through quests, DM events and trickle xp even while you're fighting (yes, the trickle xp keeps going if you're killing stuff while level capped under 20).

With trickle xp alone, you will get 30*24*6 = 4320 xp per day you spend playing. That's about a third of a level in most cases.

EDIT: The modifiers to the level cap have been implemented successfully. Alts beyond 42 (real) days old should all have a cap of 11 now, but to advance further you need 8 days of played time as mentioned on the 3rd page.

[Urithrand]

8 days of played time is a silly amount of time. Not everyone has 200 hours of time to in-put into a game.

As an example, my own character Leckith has been on the server for almost a year and a half, and has accrued only 14 days of play time. This is excessive and unfair to anyone who plays more than one character.

My character, well over a year old is now back to being capped at 15th level.

[TheBlankStare]

That's true, Uri. And it's part of the reason I'm posting this. I play a few different characters and it's really just not worth it anymore. In just a little bit of time I could have all of my characters essentially unable to advance them all another level until I'd logged some 16 days of RL play time. Ick.

The change really sends a few messages:

1 - Grinding characters will bring about draconian measures for everyone. Don't do it. (I'm sure this is an intended message though maybe not worded as harshly as I just did.)
2 - If you want to play more than one character, don't bother. Eventually, you'll never be able to advance because of the insane amounts of actual play-time that are going to be required. (I've only seen one post in a thread that complained about multiple characters so I'm sure that this one isn't an intended message.)
3 - Sundren is the place for you if you want to have an insanely rich (for their level) character. (Even though you can't gain experience until a certain amount of play time has been accumulated you can most certainly gain a lot of gold during the time that you're waiting for your cap to increase. I'm pretty sure that's unintended but farmers will always farm if there is anything to be gained from it.)

I know that these sound kind of whiny and snotty but you should have seen the first version. It was nitpicky too.

Anyway, I'll keep an eye on this thread for a while to see if anything changes. I might even hop on from time to time for a little fun and check out the improvements to the AI that are being planned. If you have any characters that have any unfinished business with any of mine just send me a PM here and we'll work out a time finish things up.

[Phantom Lamb]

Folks, without going into details, let's not go overboard about "playing multiple characters." The new system is not linear in how it calculates the level cap. Given two players with equal playing time, one who plays a single character and the other who plays multiple. The first would have a higher level cap than any of the second player's characters, as expected. But if the second player added up his level caps on all his characters (taking the level 5 starting point into account), he'd find it's higher than that of the single character player!

So, my point is this: don't overreact yet. Gut reactions, flying off the handle... just wait and see how it works out. Things are still getting tweaked here and there. Constructive feedback is helpful, but emotions are not.

Thanks--

[Thief Of Navarre]

We are only human PL Emotions govern most of our constructive feedback

[Peridan]

I'm as of yet unsure of the ramifications of this new level cap system. Personally I tend to make random characters every blue moon and leave them at level 7 or so unless somehow they catch on. So I'll give it a few weeks, see how things run before I decide to walk into the Exigo and start lighting things on fire.


But I know not these emotions you speak of.

Live long, and prosper.

[DireBadgerEntersRage]

There is no emotion, there is peace..



It's all Peridan's fault, he started it!

[Dayledose]

After thinking much about this.

I see the points that alot of the staff are making, most of them , after the recent tweaks done by Kael, only seem to apply to chars created within the last couple of months. *wish I knew how to effectively quote so bear with me*

Because a large portion of the player populace instantly started blatently and outright grinding to get to 20 since the cap change.

Not trying to rant, but after talking with a few of the folk that got a cap of 19 after all the changes, this could continue, yes?

As for playing multiple characters.. well I deleted all of mine except for those that have a specific rp connection to another. Well and my dwarf though he might go as well. My main concern with all of this has been the fact that now i get the feeling that I should only play one character until he reaches 20. After that , the folk he was traveling with should also be around that level and I won't be left behind. Then I can play a new one and find new people to travel with.

As much as the Dev team tries to dissuade people from grinding/leveling the decisions between Rp and grinding ultimately rests on the player base as I see it. Perhaps another thing that concerns me is that I have found some people that I do enjoy Rp'n with but cannot travel with them for fear that my lvl 14 wizard will be in an area where he gets no xp and might be dm smited *or warned* until he leaves. I wish that I had effective solutions to the problems I see.

I would like to help some of the newer players, as I am one still , but creating a character to run with them will mean that I'll just end up deleting it afterwards since I will go back to my main for Rp and dungeon crawling with my normal group. Since by the time I get back to the new character , the group he was traveling with will have progressed beyond him and won't be able to travel with him. To me this encourages the "cliques" that have been the bane of some Rp servers I played on with NWN1. I know that probably isn't intended by the Dev Team, so I think maybe I'm not understanding all the motivations for the various changes.

I am happy with this server and I appreciate all the work that goes into it. I have no wish to see alot of the player discontent that has been voiced, both on the forums and in game through tells. Perhaps things will settle after folk get used to the changes, but as it stands, it is my impression that one has a few choices, try to word your dissatifaction in an appropriate way, live with it or leave.

Hope this doesn't anger anyone, I tried to be as polite and concise in pointing out my concerns.

Respectfully,
The Dose Man.

[TheBlankStare]

Folks, without going into details, let's not go overboard about "playing multiple characters." The new system is not linear in how it calculates the level cap. Given two players with equal playing time, one who plays a single character and the other who plays multiple. The first would have a higher level cap than any of the second player's characters, as expected. But if the second player added up his level caps on all his characters (taking the level 5 starting point into account), he'd find it's higher than that of the single character player!

PL, this argument doesn't address any concerns that people have posted about playing multiple characters. What you're argument says is, "So what? All of those characters that you're playing are going to have more total levels than the single character that Player X is playing." What we're saying is that we will reach a point where none of our characters are able to advance without spending many many RL days "catching up to the cap." Insane amounts of time actually.

Let's compare the two types of players. I'm assuming no DM attention to any of the characters for the sake of simplicity. (Also because character death would likely erase any of the gains that come from Quest or DM awarded xp.)

Player A has one character and has played for 24 total days and has finally achieved level 20. Good for him. This one is easy enough to figure out.

Player B has two characters and has split his time equally between the two. Each character has 12 total days of play time and is currently at it's level cap of 14. Looking okay, but when you look at the chart it will take four more days played to get each of them to level 15 and eight more days played to get each of them to Tier three and level 16.

Player C has three characters. Again with equal playing time totaling 24 days (eight days each). All three characters have reached level 12 now and Player C needs to put in six days of RL play time to get them all to level 13. They'll likely never reach level 16 because that would require 21 more days of real life time.

Player D has four characters. Each one has six days of play time and has hit the maximum level of ten. However, to reach level 12 will require an additional investment of eight days. Like Player C, these characters will likely never reach level 16. That would require 32 more days.

Player E is a really prolific character generator and enjoys playing five or more characters. It's extremely unlikely that any of them will graduate to Tier 2 and nearly impossible that any one of them will get to Tier 3.

Please also take into consideration, as Saulus already brought up once before, that being at your cap doesn't equal no advancement. You still progress through quests, DM events and trickle xp even while you're fighting (yes, the trickle xp keeps going if you're killing stuff while level capped under 20).

With trickle xp alone, you will get 30*24*6 = 4320 xp per day you spend playing. That's about a third of a level in most cases.

But Kael, you said:

However, if you don't play a lot, your 'effective days played' to determine what your cap is can be raised. So if you've spent 2 hours a day on average on that character since it was created then, because you're in tier 1, that time played is increased as if you had played 4 hours per day. In the example given it would give you 10 days played. You then use that number to determine your level cap, but you cannot exceed your tier. Making your cap 11 and unable to progress further until you have truly have played those 8 days. The requirement in order to reach tier 2.

This indicates that at least three places (Just before Tiers 2, 3 and 4) exist where advancement isn't possible. The message that we're getting is still that players who play fewer characters have more value to the community that players who play several. Players that play only one character have the most value of them all.

[Phantom Lamb]

I'm not making any arguments, Blank. I'm stating the way the system has been implemented. We will not publish the specifics of the tier cap system. In fact, the specifics of the old system were never officially published--people just guessed on it.

Our goal is to prevent grinding and not contributing to roleplay. Again, I ask folks hold their gut reactions for a bit as the system ratios are tweaked. The devs aren't finished and they appreciate your constructive criticism and patience. Thanks--

[Allielliot]

So are you arguing that you should be able to lvl all of your people as fast as one person who sticks to thier one person lvls thiers? that aslo doesn't seem quite fair. I'm one of those people with multiple pc, and this had made me want to start playing one of them more. That doesn't mean that i am being punished though. It is logical and not much different than the old system except that now if you play multiple character you cannot grind them all to grow faster than they should. maybe the rl requirements are high, but the overall idea is to have another controll against grinding, and i support that. In the end, if you play multiple characters, and someone else plays only one for the same amount of total time, then that person wit one character should be higher than your multiple characters. I'm actually really surprised to see you so upset at the TBS. You were the least grind oriented person i had rped with, adn so i am confused. I feel like the numbers are a little high, but i thought that you would support a system that will get people like me to grind and just kill stuff less. Not trying to call you out or attack you I am just not sure that i'm following your logic that multi char people are "less valued".

[Kaeldorn]

Please also take into consideration, as Saulus already brought up once before, that being at your cap doesn't equal no advancement. You still progress through quests, DM events and trickle xp even while you're fighting (yes, the trickle xp keeps going if you're killing stuff while level capped under 20).

With trickle xp alone, you will get 30*24*6 = 4320 xp per day you spend playing. That's about a third of a level in most cases.

But Kael, you said:

However, if you don't play a lot, your 'effective days played' to determine what your cap is can be raised. So if you've spent 2 hours a day on average on that character since it was created then, because you're in tier 1, that time played is increased as if you had played 4 hours per day. In the example given it would give you 10 days played. You then use that number to determine your level cap, but you cannot exceed your tier. Making your cap 11 and unable to progress further until you have truly have played those 8 days. The requirement in order to reach tier 2.

This indicates that at least three places (Just before Tiers 2, 3 and 4) exist where advancement isn't possible. The message that we're getting is still that players who play fewer characters have more value to the community that players who play several. Players that play only one character have the most value of them all.

You misunderstand how the level cap works, TBS. Your level cap does not prevent you from getting any experience altogether, it only applies to experience gained from kills. Trickle XP, quest XP and DM event XP will all keep going. Though trickle ends once you reach 20th. If you've done all possible quests and there are no DMs around, then that 30 xp every 10 minutes may seem a bit lackluster (and it is), but it does add up eventually. Not as fast as what you'd get for grinding, sure. But it keeps going. When you hit your cap and keep fighting enemies, even then your trickle xp will continue on. It only stops if you have killed anything that afforded you with XP in the last hour.

So once you are stuck at the level right the next tier, you aren't truly stuck. You are only made unable to grind for xp, all other doors are left open. You can possibly even gain a whole level over your cap before it increases if you put in enough time and effort. I remember doing that with Yashia in the old system.

On the multiple characters comment: In the current system, someone who spends 8 days playing on 3 characters will have both of them with access to level 15 eventually. You don't need to have played those 14 days on each to get that far. The 'two hours per day rule' of that tier ensures that if those characters are 168 calendar days old (not necessarily played days), they get their cap raised automatically to 15. No time spent playing required whatsoever. Only to breach 16 and beyond you'd have to have played for at least 15 days.

This means that if you spend 8 days playing on 3 characters (24 days total), they can have a cap total of 45 (15*3). While someone who spends 24 days playing one one can reach a cap of 20 for that character while having one alt on the side for caps of 20 and 11.

The system really isn't so unfair to players with multiple characters.. Only if you truly have to play 4 or more characters all for an equal amount of time, then you're likely going to have most capped at 11.