My PC's Destiny

[Verrath]

Not for you maybe.

Exactly. And it's all about me.

... right?

[Thief Of Navarre]

Personally Im prepared to take whatever is coming to my character(s)!

I have been in various situations before where the DM's judgement was a bit off and I ended up being a very sad panda (not-sundren, not NWN2 related) and things like that make me wish I had voted for the latter 'MMO' style experience.

Luckily I havnt had an experience like that on any NWN2 PWs

*edit* I think Kangletons right about risking more than just life. In fact its the sole reason I made my character Angelo; to try and sow the seed of misery without 'actually' harming anyone! I like that kind of injury >:]

[Kangleton]

Machiavelli, while I completely agree with you, I think there are more strategies to consider than just bubbling the NPC or making him essentially invincible. Having a method by which the NPC can be resurrected, or a back-up NPC who is ready to fill in the role of their old mentor, or something that still allows the player to say "I got him!" without having to sacrifice the integrity of the faction.

For instance, if someone decides that they don't like Balthasar's face, comes up with a brilliant plan to stomp it in, and executes it flawlessly, I think Balthasar should take a dirt-nap. What happens as a result of this is what matters most, however. Perhaps in Balthasar's wake, a new champion takes up the position, but now with the added consequence that the good guys are cracking down.

As a result of the assassination, the new leader only makes appearances with heavily fortified bodyguards with him at all times, and he takes up an autocratic approach to the fighting of evil. This guy begins hassling citizens and innocents, being suspicious of absolutely everyone since the death of his old mentor, and he shows far less mercy and forgiveness.

In essence, the faction is still alive and breathing, capable of filling the shoes it did before the NPC got killed, but has still been significantly impacted in such a way that the assassin can sit back and say "look at me, I'm a god damned champion - teehee and what not". This would, in my opinion, take huge steps towards making players feel like the environment can really shift as a result of their decisions. Factions and society can be impacted by radical events, and it will motivate players to probably do anything but cling to a campfire.

Alternatively, have a plan for raising the NPC. Obviously this can't be done over and over because it would be really repetitive, but it still works. If an assassination was successful but they manage to heal the guy either from death or from the brink of it, the assassin gets that "so close" feeling, which is still more of an accomplishment than the "why bother trying" feeling. This also leaves opportunity for a display of impact. Perhaps the perspective of the victim alters slightly as the event happens, and he becomes more sheltered and paranoid. Those around him grow worried and seek retribution, and he locks himself away in his private chambers working on some project that he refuses to tell anyone about.

Allowing for this kind of impact stimulates future plot development, character development, and even world progression. That secret project could be anything, and the new leader of a faction who had their former commander killed could be so stricken with grief that the ends begin to justify the means, retribution takes precedence over mercy, and you have a future villain in the making, unless PC's can bring him back on track. To me, things like this would make the world so rich.

Should a DM again tell me this is unrealistic, I won't make another post on it. I'm not trying to start an argument, but I wanted to emphasize my own perspective like the selfish douche that I am.

[Thief Of Navarre]

@Kangleton' post
I like that ideology: It gives the player scope to develop his/her character, shape the world and in the long run it affects little.

I suppose the lore/history aspect of it means that people will be putting a lot more work into the wiki so it doesnt look dodgy or give misinformation but most of Sundren' history is word of mouth anyway right?

[Rhifox]

I'd have to QFE Kangleton's post.

No NPC should be invulnerable. Don't care how important they are to some 'overarching plot'. The overarching plot should be moldable. If the player can't change the course of the plot by killing off or otherwise removing/changing one of those important NPCs, then there is absolutely no reason to participate in it. The plot is much better when it changes based on player action, not when it reaches its final arch by following a scripted path that the DMs planned for from the start.

Even something as simple as replacing the NPC's role with a new NPC fulfilling a similar role, as Kangleton said, is better than just ticking the 'Plot' box on them and making them invulnerable. NPCs should suffer from consequences of their actions as much as any player.

[joker]

I agree about the NPCs. All the Legionaires standing around at the Schild Mountain fort can not be killed. I have seen one Legionaire stand at the bottom of the mountain and take on any and every Veritas soldier! All while he was at Near Death. I am sure some of the Veritas members would love to ASSAULT THAT FORT and send the Legion running.

Any how, I voted for the first option. I like it when the DM throw -10 Chaos/Lawfull/Good/Evil points on you for your actions. However, it would be nice to be rewarded with a Signus every now and again to.

[Thief Of Navarre]

Yeah, I think sometimes people are afraid of an alignment hit: one point here and there and I could perform a lifetime of evil deeds while still remaining chaotic good!

Its when you see five or ten points for being evil that you sit back and think 'well I really am a jerk'. I dont think there is anything wrong with getting alignment points towards your own alignment though of course

okay, Im derailing the thread so Ill shut up...

[Phantom Lamb]

I agree that no NPC should be invulnerable actually. But that's a personal opinion, not a Sundren opinion.

However, I'd say that those characters need to do a better job of assessing what's possible. You may come up with an imaginative plot, and DMs try to drop hints about how hard it will be. I find those hints are often ignored.

[Thief Of Navarre]

Yeah we like to think we are invincible ourselves sometimes; Cognitive dissonance over my own attitude to roleplaying I think

[Product of Void]

I agree that no NPC should be invulnerable actually. But that's a personal opinion, not a Sundren opinion.

However, I'd say that those characters need to do a better job of assessing what's possible. You may come up with an imaginative plot, and DMs try to drop hints about how hard it will be. I find those hints are often ignored.

People are far from perfect, a bad day, or a roll of 1. Could effect what they catch and do not. Possible that english isn't their native language, or what event they want is something they have REALLY been looking forward too.

Being a guy I don't do subtle well. My mom once was mad that me and my dad missed her birthday she gave us subtle hints.

Plus I would say a good half of all coversation is tones and expressions. I am sure you can say one string of words probably a dozen ways with just expressions and tone

Internet lacks these things so we interupt them with our own slant.

Why I fear limb loss
http://www.thenoobcomic.com/index.php?pos=101

Though I am not afraid of limb loss etc if I decide it,my current favorite charactor is missing both pinkies, lost and gained an eye. And has few screws left to loose.

It was my choice, and all for rp reasons.

Much like the carebearing at the campfire, the call for dms to do what ever just feels like a call to entertian.

I have been a dm both PnP and in nwn1. I don't see it as a job to control or mutilate the PCs. More of to throw out a hook and see if they grab then give them a ride in a story.

I have also been in some TERRIBLE Dm ran plots both PnP and NWN1. One night I went through four charactors in PnP. Another I made lunch while the dms talked over the parties dead corpses for over a RL hour.

The idea of building a back story, leveling, equiping, building ties, and spending months RL on a charactor only to have it maimed by a bad night, or by someone elses actions just doesn't sound fun.

Not trying to hurt, insult, or be mean, just trying to show my point of view.

[Xeesheava]

The idea of building a back story, leveling, equiping, building ties, and spending months RL on a charactor only to have it maimed by a bad night, or by someone elses actions just doesn't sound fun.

I feel the same way, sometimes I feel frustrated when im playing a new char (or when I played new chars) the fact of being on negative hitpoints and start recovering, and when I run straight to the exit, a critical hit does 11 damage points, ding! dead.

Today we were with Tarangil at the Schild, both of us. He died, I tried to take his body and a Corporal landed two criticals in a row, ran again, and long story short, recovered the body.
The whole point is like PoV said, a misplaced critical hit in a bad time, a natural one roll even at full HP and buffed, is frustrating.

Some DMs (jokes aside) really wants to do a complete party wipe every time. I experienced a Killer DM in a D&D day, was a special PnP game.
We were Level 1 characters and the DM said: "A Illithid appears, all roll DC 30 against death", all dead.

A dead character is a sensitive matter, Im not forcing the DMs to not kill a character if the situation goes wrong, but at least, the player must have some kind of reward or consolation price, like bending a little the rules and giving him a character 3 levels below the dead one or a locked race/class character starting normal.

Death aside, the limb loss / permanent effects / long term effects, must be fair. The penalties can't be too harsh to discourage the player to play his char.
One time, in a Spanish server, I was playing a wizard (level 1), an archer got her, when the fight ended (while I was on -5) the DM said: "You can't use two handed weapons or cast any spell for 3 days". I said "Ok" and never logged again.

[Thief Of Navarre]

Wow Xeesheava & PoV, you really have met some terrible evil people!

worst I ever got was a bit of spellfailure as a permanent addition because my mage got roasted by a hellball. (I think the DM let me off; hellball hitting a level 8 mage would have been a perm imo).

[black hand]

Today we were with Tarangil at the Schild, both of us. He died, I tried to take his body and a Corporal landed two criticals in a row, ran again, and long story short, recovered the body.
The whole point is like PoV said, a misplaced critical hit in a bad time, a natural one roll even at full HP and buffed, is frustrating.

As annoying as it may be though having your head stomped on when you're already down, one must realize that us as players don't hesitate to do a Coup de Grace given the chance... I guess Seur Corporal saw it fit to do the same. It will be awhile to get that boot impression off of poor Tar's face.

As a player I have to take the good with the bad, at least death by a mercyless enemy is better than death by lag, or the dreaded auto attack.

[Kaeldorn]

Please keep it on topic. Player vs. Environment deaths may be a pain in the butt sometimes, but they have very little to do with plot and character development and the DM's influence on those aspects of the game.

[Kangleton]

I think it's on-topic insofar as the fact that, even in a DM event, sometimes you just get shitty luck with the numbers. In that event, it'd really be disheartening of a permadeath was the final result. It'd be like losing at a hand in poker despite having the perfect set-up, all odds on your side, and yet the next turn of the card was really the only thing out of all possible options that would ruin your game. I wouldn't wanna be all-in at a time like that, which is essentially the case if your character's (perma)life is on the line.

Personally though, I just have my Thayan Knight deal with the criticals.

And while I have nothing further to add to what I've already said, I'd like to give a thanks to PL for starting this poll and facilitating discussion. To see that opinions are being taken into account and being sought after rather than rebuked, is something I appreciate regardless of the outcome. Since that hasn't been said, I'll be the one to say it.