Mystic Theurge?

[Bashir]

well the first level would happen at 4 as you'd need to still meet the lore requirement. so level 3 = Lore 6 then comes the PRC.

though thats just me being anal about a technicality. you are correct though. sorry.

most classes do have hefty prereqs. but those classes all have abilities that are unique and special. and you don't have to worry about being "behind" on your relative power level to a level cap. also the stats requirement given the low magic setting is also something to consider.

While the suggested class changes are probably disconcerting to you in the long run, there are a lot of other drawbacks to make up for it.

on a high magic setting the changes wouldn't make sense on account of you could just get +9 enchants with a beljuril or whatever. (so you could start with a 8-10 in a casting stat knowing you could make up for it with +9 enchants).

But here the changes do makes sense (at least to me). as unless you go for specific combinations (like Bard/Favored Soul or Druid/Cleric or Sorcerer/Favored Soul) your stats are gimped.

and even if you do go for those combinations they come with the drawback of being "behind" your relative power level.

or with the drawback of having limited spells to choose from as well as not picking up any class specific features, (like favored soul weapon spec or focus or energy resistances), thus negating some of the benefit of having two casting classes.

or finally taking up 3 of the 4 slots for multiclassing. leaving you with just one last class to build with.

[Gairun]

Can't do Druid/Cleric, it has to be One arcane class and one divine class. Bards/mages/sorcerer + Druid/Spirit Shaman/Favoured soul/Cleric/Paladin/Ranger would work, just pick one from the first side and one from the other.

[Bashir]

yea yer right. my bad. i was thinking about classes that used the same stat instead of seperating em like that.

[Gairun]

The only way to squeeze as much non-suckiness out of the MT class would be to go Sorcerer/Favored soul. However you are going to lose a ton of the abilities of Favored soul, and you are going to have very limited (And I mean wow thats bare) spell selection. Your either going to have to go with the healer/buffer approach, or Crowd Control/Disrupter spell selections here and stick strictly to that. Strong points would be being able to fight as a gimped cleric with your Dietys favored weapon for free, and being able to have decent starting stats since you would only need to go with a high charisma for starting. One of the worst parts of this build would be the piss poor skill selection and skill points per level.

The above however is all from my number crunching side, as I believe such an abomination on a PW server would have to be Role-played very oddly. Perhaps a Favored soul of Oghma. . .throw in the sorcerer. . . kind of Sagey bumbling uncle type guy who always wants to talk on and on about this and that and never really accomplishes anything, Just Like a Mystic Theruge! PERFECT!

Bard builds don't work in a MT build, if you want I can list why.

[Jaeram]

Couldn't a MT just be role played for instance as a devout spell caster? For instance a wizard who found his faith and through a certain level of dedication to this deity he was blessed with a limited selection of spells (i.e. he's probably not getting any higher than level 6's). Just because a deity shines upon you doesn't really mean you would forget entirely about your love of the weave does it? I mean an extreme kind of example was Cadmus and he gave his up for his new powers, but I don't think it would always have to be like that. From purely a role playing aspect I think it would be the deities choice whether or not to make the person lose their weave spell casting abilities would it not?

[Vejuz]

Actually, now that I think about it, a MT with healing domain would be an awesome healer/buffer. For added healing, make the arcane class bard.

-V

[Mighty_Draco]

Minimum spell level 1 sounds too low to me. If you do that, then effectively a caster can dip in cleric, then continue with caster progression barely fettered. Sorcerer 4/Cleric 1/ Theurge 10 would be a bit too much IMO. Maybe if you cut out a caster progression in the mix. True Necromancer from the Necronomicon is a better example of a Theurge fix.

[Gairun]

What I was referring to Jaeram was a Sorcerer/Favored soul of Oghma, and how I would envision that be roleplayed.

And bard makes a horrible arcane class to qualify for MT.

[Jaeram]

If I made a MT I think I would go Wizard / Cleric myself with a deity like Mystra or something. I would probably want to toy around with the build a little bit before I made it though, on like a private server.

[MKartMaster]

Minimum spell level 1 sounds too low to me. If you do that, then effectively a caster can dip in cleric, then continue with caster progression barely fettered. Sorcerer 4/Cleric 1/ Theurge 10 would be a bit too much IMO. Maybe if you cut out a caster progression in the mix. True Necromancer from the Necronomicon is a better example of a Theurge fix.

You might be right, Draco. It looks like we almost have to have faith in the MAD that is introduced making up for the power gained (and in the case of the bard/favored, well, you're a bard). What if we upped it to needing 2 levels (actual levels, not spell levels) of each class? If we gave it dead levels of spellcasting, we'd probably want to give it something, or align them with BAB/Save increases at least.

Also, I'm AFB, so can you give us a summary of the TN?

[Dark presence]

Mystic Theurge is an incredibly weak class, especially with the level cap as it is. Theres no way to spin it really. You totally give up the melee abilities (not literally, but there is little point in being a front line cleric/druid/whatever when you probably don't want to wear armor at all, and the hit die is what, d4? with a low bab) of a divine caster just to get more spells.

You also give up all the improving class abilities of those other classes. Bonus feats for wizards, turning and domain powers based on class level for clerics, and all the random things for favored souls and bards especially.

And seriously, why would you waste a Mystic Theurge by making them a bard? You get basically zero bardic abilities with a MT, like the all important inspirations, as well as having absolutely pathetic spell selection and spells per day. And of course using FS as the second class makes the FS nearly nonexistant.

Favored soul/sorcerer is probably the closest to a power build with mystic theurge, yet keep in mind you get none of the favoured soul's abilities. And favored soul is probably best when used for buffing/melee. Also, at level 15, at best they would have level 6 spells, not forgetting that a FS must use a spell slot for any healing spells as well as anything else.

And a specialist wizard is a lousy choice too since you won't be able to cast any divine spells of the prohibited school.

So anyways, I'd fully support a 1/1 divine/arcane with level 3+ lore requirements for a MT.

[Jaeram]

I see what all of you are saying about how this class isn't very good from a power standpoint, but in my opinion I still think it would be a cool class to put in. There are lots of different ways to build a character, for instance just because you have to give up armor (assuming you mean plate because you were mentioning clerics), doesn't necessarily mean it would be a useless class in melee,(earlier I mentioned dex clerics who don't wear plate, they use light armor, and 10-15% spell failure? c'mon that's cake, I wouldn't think twice about it if I felt like having him wear leathers) if you have access to level 6 spells and one of your classes is wizard you could use tenser's transformation, among other methods. I could see using a bard for your arcane class as well, sure it may not sound like it's going to yield you the most powerful build, but it might make for some cool RP. I know if I was going to take this class I wouldn't be using it to make any kind of power build, but it seems like I hear a whole lot of people who keep saying it's bad because of this and this and this, but is that really the only thing that matters when considering putting a new class in the game? So what if it's weaker than a vanilla fighter (not dissing any vanilla fighters they just always seem to get picked as the weakest solo kind of class, although in a party I'd say they are fine, they just need a healer.) look at the Harper class, a lot of people say that's a useless class too, but if you had a cool RP atmosphere for Harpers then it probably wouldn't matter. Not to mention that this is a RP server not an arena type server so I hope power builds would be a bit less common. Just my 2 cents .

[Dark presence]

I never said anything about not putting it in game. I think its a good class and I'd probably try to make a MT character if the PRC got implemented.

However, for power, its horrible. Anyone who thinks it can be overpowered really underestimates everything a pure caster is losing with this PRC, especially the divine casters, and especially if you go with the PHB version of the class. Melee with this class is suicide at low levels, thanks to low AB and 4 HP per level, even if you can wear heavy armor with a cleric level. And remember, even at level 20, a MT would at best have level 8 spells in both classes, at 1 per day, and it would take another 4 levels to get level 9 spells in both since Epic PRCs don't work in NWN 2.

[sharringtonm]

*tosses a piece of bloody meat into the wild dog pack as it tries to settle down*

Check out Arcane Armor Proficiency from the D20system Ultimate Feats Manual.

Now maybe you'll see why I worry about this class. There is a chance these feats will make it to sundren.

[Jaeram]

I never said anything about not putting it in game.

I apologize, with a lot of negativity I had seen from other posts and a lot of people just calling it weak, weak, weak, without focusing on much else, it kind of seemed like they were all saying who cares we don't need it, when I actually think it sounds pretty cool .

Melee with this class is suicide at low levels, thanks to low AB and 4 HP per level.

I don't know if this would be 100% true, I've had success at low levels with my wizard (low bab and 4hp/level), just using a dagger and wizard buffs. I don't really think it would be THAT bad. Plus if you are grouping like you should be, this probably wouldn't even be an issue *shrug*

I do like a lot of the different aspects people have brought to this discussion, and I'm glad Saulus seems to be on board with this particular PRC . I guess I would just like to see more people talk about what they think they could really do with the class rather than all this stuff is holding it back.

*Grabs the meat and cooks it at the Exigo campfire*