Thoughts on the death system...

[Xanderleo]

I think I can safely say, all viewpoints have been expressed on this and the Project Lead is aware of them now.

[Leevoth]

*nudge, nudge*

Perma-death, anyone?

[Vekin]

The changes that will be implemented are "likely" as follows:

- Resurrection by talking to the Essence of Night will be possible up until level 8, after which (starting level 9) you will only be able to resurrect yourself by using a signus (or of course if someone finds your body and raises you)
- For players level 8 and below, the signus will allow you to leave the forest of Eternal Night earlier than the timer for waiting

It is expected that starting at level 9, most players will have enough experience with Sundren, it's mechanics, and soforth that they will be much better prepared for the challenges ahead...

However, having said that... it also means that all players over level 8 will likely receive a handout of several signuses. Keep in mind these will eventually get in the loot tables... we're a bit understaffed as always and a lot of us have been busy lately with work, school, etc... This is a passionate hobby for most of the staff, not a job.

That will probably go a long way to ease the problems that a lot of players have with the current system. Its good to see the design team take players comments onboard

[Jaeram]

I believe Saulus mentioned most of those proposed changes in a post shortly after the new death system was implemented, but maybe a lot of people didn't read it, because it seemed like the posts that were made after the death system changed focused only on what was implemented already and I didn't hear anyone mention it outside of that thread. I'll edit if I can find it.

Edit: Found it, kinda http://www.sundren.org/forum/showthr...7%20%20&page=4 and the part I remeber reading was - "As a closing note there was an original feature in these death changes we ommitted that I already previously decided will be introduced after all. Players under level 9 (as in, starting level 9+ this will no longer occur) that are in a party while in a dungeon will only be able to be knocked unconscious (unless hit with a death spell), just as per the campaign they will get up after a short period of intermission solong as the party survives." -Saulus

So it is a little bit different than what he mentioned this time, but I'm surprised I didn't hear anyone mention it in any of the other posts.

[Saulus]

I believe Saulus mentioned most of those proposed changes in a post shortly after the new death system was implemented, but maybe a lot of people didn't read it, because it seemed like the posts that were made after the death system changed focused only on what was implemented already and I didn't hear anyone mention it outside of that thread. I'll edit if I can find it.

Edit: Found it, kinda http://www.sundren.org/forum/showthr...7%20%20&page=4 and the part I remeber reading was - "As a closing note there was an original feature in these death changes we ommitted that I already previously decided will be introduced after all. Players under level 9 (as in, starting level 9+ this will no longer occur) that are in a party while in a dungeon will only be able to be knocked unconscious (unless hit with a death spell), just as per the campaign they will get up after a short period of intermission solong as the party survives." -Saulus

So it is a little bit different than what he mentioned this time, but I'm surprised I didn't hear anyone mention it in any of the other posts.

That's because people like being doomsayers.

[Invictus]

You knew it was going to be a bad idea. It was discussed. Was it worth it I wonder?

Because beta sort of seems like "sandbox" to me.

[Leevoth]

The thing is; yes the DM's and developers have plans for the server, but Average Joe Sundrenite PC doesn't know what those plans are.

So when such big changes are made people can only guess as to if it's permanent or not, and so on...until someone comes along and says something about it.

Of course it's still in Beta, but thats can be a piece of info people gloss over easily. Perhaps an on-going thread of whats being planned is in order?

[Jaeram]

You knew it was going to be a bad idea. It was discussed. Was it worth it I wonder?

Because beta sort of seems like "sandbox" to me.

I hope it doesn't incite anything, because I'm just curious. You said you knew it was going to be a bad idea, what was going to be a bad idea exactly? or if you meant the new death system in general was going to be a bad idea, why do you think it's a bad idea?

I actually think a stricter death system was a good idea, while I am not one who thinks perma-death is a good idea (because I like all my individual characters), I do think that making death a big inconvenience would be a good thing on a heavy RP server environment where you want your players to take more precautions in battle and have a certain 'fear' of death. For the record I support the DM's changes to the death system.

[Saulus]

The thing is; yes the DM's and developers have plans for the server, but Average Joe Sundrenite PC doesn't know what those plans are.

I'm constantly telling people what the plans are but most fail to read and love assuming things, and a lot of people seem to think that because they've played some PWs before and play WoW that they happen to know something about game design -- a common misconception.

[Invictus]

What I mean is with the death system and the hard level cap it was talked about in the player circles and the forums very much. The general idea is it would suck. When the level change came in, which made it completely unrewarding and totally boring to play, it soured things. Then the death system came in.. now it made it so everyone would just sit around a fire talking about nothing. No DM's were on, no real plots going on. Some DM's left because they didn't even enjoy the changes.

I mean.. we are always told "well you should roleplay and not worry about the changes, only roleplay should matter." Then the next day there is a post saying "this is not a hardcore roleplay server". Whaaaaaat?



Now most have up and left, leaving Sundren pretty much a boring campfire story time server. Cruddy thing is there were plenty of opportunities to avoid this.

But hey.. us players don't know anything, right?

[MKartMaster]

My only thought is, if this system isn't fully implemented, don't leave it half-implemented either. Make death the way it used to be, until you can fully convert it to how it should be. Because as it is, my main character has been in the death area for several days, and I haven't seen a signus EVER, or a DM online in all of that time.

The death penalties are there, but the preventative measures aren't... that just isn't fair, speaking from first hand experience. I'm all for the changes described, but not for half of them without the other half. It isn't doom and gloom or whatever, its irritation with running around in circles in that doomy and gloomy forest of yours.

I think this is important. If the plan is to have 3 signi to new characters, with a timer to get out of the FEN below level 8, and spending a signus to get out earlier or at all after level 9, and to use diamonds to power ressurections, and to have signi and diamonds in the loot tables, don't implement just half these things. (Some/Many) Players will not like it. Oh, look at that, they don't.

I like the concept of the death system as projected...provided we don't get the bad without the good. All the points I could really make have already been made in this thread, so MK out.

[Saulus]

All right, lets go at this point by point.

What I mean is with the death system and the hard level cap it was talked about in the player circles and the forums very much. The general idea is it would suck.

That's a bit of an exaggeration, there was a lot of positive feedback.

When the level change came in, which made it completely unrewarding and totally boring to play, it soured things. Then the death system came in.. now it made it so everyone would just sit around a fire talking about nothing.

Nothing is ever perfect on the first implementation and just like when it was implemented I said it would receive further refinement.

No DM's were on, no real plots going on. Some DM's left because they didn't even enjoy the changes.

Another perfect example of assuming something. Some of our DMs are a lot busier in life and stepped out due to personal issues and other reasons... and of course what we do is volunteer work, which you can't expect to last forever. We're always losing and gaining DMs constantly, and that's never changed.

I mean.. we are always told "well you should roleplay and not worry about the changes, only roleplay should matter." Then the next day there is a post saying "this is not a hardcore roleplay server". Whaaaaaat?

It isn't a hardcore roleplay server, but when I tell people not to worry because things aren't going to stay like this forever... what does everyone do? Well they start bringing up gloomy comments like the one below..

Now most have up and left, leaving Sundren pretty much a boring campfire story time server. Cruddy thing is there were plenty of opportunities to avoid this.

People will always play Sundren, and if people are going to get their panties in a knot because things change during a beta as we experiment with new changes... then don't bring it here... honestly I have better things to do then keep explaining things to people.

Sundren has so many different ongoing projects and there will always be players no matter what, people come and go a hundred times over and I'm never concerned about permanently losing people. Having any players at all is just part of the process.

I'm never going to be bullied or pressured into doing what someone else wants unless I genuinely think it's what I want for the server. I want to see things with my own eyes and gather my own results before I make changes.

But hey.. us players don't know anything, right?

Well the ones that kept a cool head about things that reserved judgement do, on the other hand when I read the loads of BS like above it almost makes me laugh because it's simply full of so many assumptions which simply aren't true.

I'm bringing this to a close because honestly, I think everyone has had ample opportunity to voice their opinion, and I've stated consistently that this is not the last of the changes... so reserve some judgement for after everything is finished. At this point any further discussion is just going to be whining... which we don't really need to read or hear.