Thoughts on the death system...

[Myrddin]

Honestly, I think both sides are taking this far to seriously than it should be. It's a game folks. Yes, I would be just as upset and unhappy if Myrddin was lost to the pages of time and his story came to an end.

But, in the end it's only a game.

[Jaeram]

You have the ability to progress with minimal combat, IF YOU CHOOSE to do so.

Just think of your own mortality in a RL situation... None of us are willing to throw our lives away for stupid shit that ain't rational. So think rationally when you do something or else you get pwn'd and your done for good long while.

It's all very very very simple. The server practically gives you Xp for developing your character combat gains are high rewards, but also high risk which is how it should be.

This may seem like it's a bit off topic from the death system per say, but, Infernal mentioned thinking about things like your own life, well I know I and some other players here practice martial arts, you train yourself in a non life threatening environment so that if the situation arises you have knowledge and confidence in defending yourself. If you try to think of this as a real world equivalent in time, when our cultures fought primarily with swords and other weapons, many of those knights or soldiers spent hours every day preparing themselves for battle, from going through stances and control practices to techniques and sparring with other soldiers. As the system stands if I wish to play some sort of character who chooses to fight in such a manner, the only way to get that kind of experience (in an IC RP aspect) would be to fight the monsters or other denizens that inhabit Sundren, because you don't get experience for .subdual fights or pvp (which is good in my opinion because I'm sure some people would abuse it). If you think about the auto experience to say that your character is going to learn the same amount about fighting (gaining levels, getting stronger etc...) while doing that kind of training as he would shooting the breeze or joking around a camp fire doesn't seem to make sense.

So I don't want to complain about the death system anymore (because I really don't think it's that bad) but merely to point out that since we work within the confines of an engine there a certain things that can't be emulated very well or all the time so a slightly more lax death system might not be a bad idea. Also if you think about being in a high fantasy setting, where gods are actively involved in things, and there are people who through their study and devotion to their lord have the ability to bring some one back to life, is it really that hard to believe that there might be a temple priest who in time will provide a service for you to be resurrected (time penalty raise only if your group drags your corpse to the temple and only when you don't have signus/diamonds, many priests are selfless people and would provide a service for free in my opinion, like taking in the poor or homeless) or that there is a greedy monster in the nether planes who will bring you back to life for shiny objects? (sounds kind of like a dragon to me)

Sorry for such a long post, hopefully I didn't misinterpret anything I meant to say *jumps off the soap box* just my 2 cents

[zkeleton]

**Gets out his poking stick..... (no not that kind of poking stick )**

I can't imagine playing a character, having him or her die, and then be inexplicably alive again with absolutely no consequence.

Go play the OC and you won't have to imagine it.

In relation to the ganking, wouldn't ganking essentially be against the rules, along the lines of initiating pvp unprovoked or without proper IC warning / reason?

Your sarcasm meter is broken.

this is Hardcore RP people.

This isn't a hard core RP server.

I think you're missing the point still.
What I'm suggesting is in addition to XP loss of the current system.

I think we all get the point. We just don't all agree with you. Explain it again though maybe you'll change our minds.

So a death system should be painful, but not frustrating.

**Puts away his poking stick and stands up and claps**

Very well put.

[undeadsteak]

*Shrug.* It won't be painful or frustrating if you take care and don't die.


And yes, this server is meant to be sort of Hardcore. Why else would the DMs make this change?

[Infernal_Havok]

*Shrug.* It won't be painful or frustrating if you take care and don't die.


And yes, this server is meant to be sort of Hardcore. Why else would the DMs make this change?

Exactly! This is suppose to be Hardcore RP not Perma death there is a difference for those who have played in perma'death servers and rp servers. Hardcore RP is being immersed in your F***in character and making them interact with "everything" in the environment of the module not just Monsters and the random NPC/PC.

In other words, the server is Hardcore RP the majority of players are not.

[FunkGuru]

I think we all get the point. We just don't all agree with you. Explain it again though maybe you'll change our minds.

By "we" and "all" who do you mean?
If you did get it I wouldn't have to explain it again.
Either you understood it or you didn't.

[Kaldaris]

Exactly! This is suppose to be Hardcore RP not Perma death there is a difference for those who have played in perma'death servers and rp servers. Hardcore RP is being immersed in your F***in character and making them interact with "everything" in the environment of the module not just Monsters and the random NPC/PC.

In other words, the server is Hardcore RP the majority of players are not.

This isn't really a rant but just something I find laughable about the NWN community... It's so self destructive! I say this because I know other PWs have dealt with the same, their owners have told me so many horror stories...

But we get a few users who have been banned on Sundren for clearly breaking our rules, and it almost becomes a mission for them to slander and flame Sundren, a community project that's totally free of charge and made for the NWN2 community.

Literally going on other websites and just writing nonsense... and it's like oh wait? This is supposed to make people who do this kind of work want to continue? This just boggles my mind that literally players are trying to destroy the community they play in because of their selfish actions.

Onto my main point:

Sundren's difficulty has increased over the past few months... that's not incidental, it's intentional... There will be a lot of bumps along the way and I really want all the people who are freaked out or complaintative about it that you can relax. Sundren is not a hardcore server, I'm not trying to tell you that to make you happy, but that's a fact.

The death system is going to be harsh, yes... but only if you're careless. That's the goal of the model we have set forth, and it's not 100% there right now, but it will be.

You have to sit down and think for a second that we have a grand plan you can't see yet and that we can't show you... and you just have to have faith that we haven't spent all this time working on this without some forethought-- myself personally over two years I had been planning this project.

A lot of people have opinions about how something should work, but in the end WE know best, and we always take players desires into consideration, which is why we will never be as hardcore as permadeath because that's not the kind of playstyle a lot of our players enjoy -- however there will still be "consequences" for death.

It can be tiring to have to explain every choice and change to everyone because they don't understand the grand effect of it all.

We have some really amazing new areas in the works, and I guarantee to anyone who gets to see this new stuff that you will see with your own eyes that we are pushing the capabilities of this engine and trying to do something unique and original that people haven't tried yet.

And really, that's what the leadership of this project is all about...

http://www.sundren.org/forum/showpos...90&postcount=1

My own thoughts on this is that the death system is counter-intuitive to getting people to stay on the server. Even old-timers get bored waiting in the death area for a raise. If people can't play who they want to play ( that is acceptable on server bounds ) then they won't play at all. Sundren isn't retaining a playerbase well with this new death system, people are getting discouraged and leaving, people who have devoted a lot of time to helping the server grow.

:Edit:

This new system might not be true permadeath, but one has to understand.

This is the exact same way most 'casual permadeath' servers like Anphillia and ALFA handled their 'permadeath'.

[GatorPhD03]

I'm not a fan of the new death system. I don't have time to play more than one character or to be online long enough to develop deep personal relationship. Hell, my dead character had a charisma of 8! Geez, I thought I was RPing him well as a loner with poor social skills, but now I see that this is simply not fun on this server as you stand no chance of getting rezz'd.

There are many many things that I like on Sundren but death is not one of them.

[undeadsteak]

:X, I don't know, I haven't died much...

[Kangleton]

My own thoughts on this is that the death system is counter-intuitive to getting people to stay on the server. Even old-timers get bored waiting in the death area for a raise. If people can't play who they want to play ( that is acceptable on server bounds ) then they won't play at all. Sundren isn't retaining a playerbase well with this new death system, people are getting discouraged and leaving, people who have devoted a lot of time to helping the server grow.

I think, at one point, Saulus stated that it was not the server's purpose to just gather a large playerbase. So, I don't think the fact that the death system is shrinking numbers will bother the DM team.

However, I agree that, at the very least, it is evident that the death system is, in fact, decreasing the amount of people consistently logging on. Whether anyone cares or not, I happen to think that is a bad thing.

[Saulus]

Everyone can stop spreading the doom and gloom, as I said before the death changes were not finalized yet.

The changes that will be implemented are "likely" as follows:

- Resurrection by talking to the Essence of Night will be possible up until level 8, after which (starting level 9) you will only be able to resurrect yourself by using a signus (or of course if someone finds your body and raises you)
- For players level 8 and below, the signus will allow you to leave the forest of Eternal Night earlier than the timer for waiting

It is expected that starting at level 9, most players will have enough experience with Sundren, it's mechanics, and soforth that they will be much better prepared for the challenges ahead...

However, having said that... it also means that all players over level 8 will likely receive a handout of several signuses. Keep in mind these will eventually get in the loot tables... we're a bit understaffed as always and a lot of us have been busy lately with work, school, etc... This is a passionate hobby for most of the staff, not a job.

I have to say the people who have remained calm and understood this is a beta thing have a solid head on their shoulders, however it's definetly not nice from a developer perspective to have to listen to people moan about how Sundren is going in this huge different direction and spreading all this "gloom and doom"... enough being drama queens, keep it to the RP and I'm sure you could win an Oscar... or maybe some DM xp

[joker]

I have only been playing on Sundren for about a month now. The death system changed a week or so after I started playing here. I do not see why people are complaining so much. If you are scared of the new death system, then start another character and you will have 3 signus items. Just be carefull and stick with a group of people when you are adventuring. That is the whole point. Adventure in groups for the added protection and the different skills that different classes can bring to the party.

The staff is working the kinks out and has real jobs to do like some or most of us players. I like the direction they are taking this PW. I can't wait to see what else changes and the new areas that they are working on!

Thanks for all the hard work!

[Jaeram]

Yeah, I think some of us should relax a bit and try to understand that the current death system is probably not finished and it will take a little bit of time to get everything worked out, it is hard to remember sometimes. While I may not completely like the system as it stands, I like all the other things about Sundren enough to not care about it, so far it's the best NWN2 server I've tried, and it seems like it's only going to get better. So here's to the DM team, keep up the good work, so far I think you are doing a great job .

[Scourn]

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http://www.sundren.org/forum/showpos...90&postcount=1

My own thoughts on this is that the death system is counter-intuitive to getting people to stay on the server. Even old-timers get bored waiting in the death area for a raise. If people can't play who they want to play ( that is acceptable on server bounds ) then they won't play at all. Sundren isn't retaining a playerbase well with this new death system, people are getting discouraged and leaving, people who have devoted a lot of time to helping the server grow.

True that

[Kangleton]

My only thought is, if that this system isn't fully implemented, don't leave it half-implemented either. Make death the way it used to be, until you can fully convert it to how it should be. Because as it is, my main character has been in the death area for several days, and I haven't seen a signus EVER, or a DM online in all of that time.

The death penalties are there, but the preventative measures aren't... that just isn't fair, speaking from first hand experience. I'm all for the changes described, but not for half of them without the other half. It isn't doom and gloom or whatever, its irritation with running around in circles in that doomy and gloomy forest of yours.