Not Half Bad

[Laurk]

Beauty isn't the only measure of charisma though, and tusks dont necessarily detract from one's presence or ability to lead. They might even enhance how intimidating someone is, and intimidation is also governed by charisma.

Beauty is a part of Charisma. Half orcs are ugly, thefore that brings the entire average for their Charisma down. The only way it could remain at average (10) is if their personal magnatism and winning smile was described as above average, which it is not. Thefore, their ugliness alone is more than a justification to make their average Cha score an 8. Add the (grossly underestimated in my opinion) social stigma of being part orc, a race of monsters known overwhelmingly for savagery and mass universal rape should really set the average Charisma of a half orc on fire.

Granted, this is only my own personal opinion on the subject, and I know that for balance purposes, a minus 4 to a stat is unrealistic. If anything, its a plea for people to give half orcs just a little more hate. Abby is supposed to be one of the more "understanding and accepting" humans around, given her Ilmateri roots. However I always feel like a bigot for trying to introduce at least a little intollerance into a world that should be PACKED with it. I cringe when I hear the word "racism" on a medival-based server. Racism should be colorful and abundant here. Just me.

edit: Concerning intimidate. One of the main misconceptions of the indimidation skill is that its how scary looking you are. Its Charisma based because the skill has much more to do with a person's ability to bluff people into thinking they are holding more cards up their sleeve than they really are. Like a noob rogue managing to make someone hand over their wallet by convincing the mark he's got a buddy in the shadows with a crossbow, a warrior flashing his sword around in a performance to make himself look more skilled than he really is or a person lying through his teeth about what a bad-ass wizard he is to get someone to back down. If you can't give a good performance, intimidate doesnt work. On the other hand, if you're a giant drooling ape carrying a small arsenal and criss crossed in the scars of a thousand battles... do you really need to put ranks into intimidate? Wouldn't word of the wake of corpses in your wake be sufficient to give people pause before making pecimistic observations about your mother's virtues?

If Intimidate was simply being able to look terrifying, than it would be strength based. In my opinion, intimidate shouldn't even exist. Either your scary looking or your not. Pretending to be scary beyond what your capabilities actually provide is the province of "Bluff" if you ask me. But again, these are simply my views and not requests for any sorts of changes.

[Doubtful]

I'll post a longer response to some of the points raised here tomorrow when I have a little more time.

For now though I just wanted to flag up the Sexual and Offensive Situations part of our rules.

Sundren is a mature-content server, but we do not allow for plots that are offensive to players in real life. Abuse, child molestation, and rape should never be used in a plot on our server, even in character backgrounds. We realize that there can be grey areas, but you know when you are approaching "borderline" in your descriptions and plots. If you feel your actions are borderline, but you're not sure if they are crossing the line, simply consult a DM before going forward.

I know this thread isn't exactly encouraging folk to go start up a Rape for Drama/Character Development/Comedy plotline, but seeing as its mentioned a bit I think the rules are worth highlighting.

That and it have bugged me when I was trying to sleep if I didn't

[wangxiuming]

edit: Concerning intimidate. One of the main misconceptions of the indimidation skill is that its how scary looking you are. Its Charisma based because the skill has much more to do with a person's ability to bluff people into thinking they are holding more cards up their sleeve than they really are. Like a noob rogue managing to make someone hand over their wallet by convincing the mark he's got a buddy in the shadows with a crossbow, a warrior flashing his sword around in a performance to make himself look more skilled than he really is or a person lying through his teeth about what a bad-ass wizard he is to get someone to back down. If you can't give a good performance, intimidate doesnt work. On the other hand, if you're a giant drooling ape carrying a small arsenal and criss crossed in the scars of a thousand battles... do you really need to put ranks into intimidate? Wouldn't word of the wake of corpses in your wake be sufficient to give people pause before making pecimistic observations about your mother's virtues?

If Intimidate was simply being able to look terrifying, than it would be strength based. In my opinion, intimidate shouldn't even exist. Either your scary looking or your not. Pretending to be scary beyond what your capabilities actually provide is the province of "Bluff" if you ask me. But again, these are simply my views and not requests for any sorts of changes.

I guess this is where we disagree. Intimidation for me absolutely should factor in appearance, and it definitely should be separate from bluffing. Appearance is not the only factor to intimidation, which is why characters can invest in the skill; having a scary appearance should help, yes, but it's not the only factor.

I also don't believe intimidation is a form of bluffing. In the scenario you presented, with the noob rogue trying to make himself appear more skilled than he is - I would roll bluff in that situation. That's the rogue's attempt to pass himself as something he's not, and knows he's not. Intimidation is the attempt to make someone back down based on skills, appearance, presence, etc. that you know you have.

Circling back to the topic at hand, my original point was that having tusks in itself doesn't seem to me like a good reason to reduce half-orc CHA. Racial prejudice against the orcs, sure, but not tusks, in my opinion.

Just my two cents.

[Laurk]

So which would you commonly consider the more naturally intimidating to run into in a dark alley or a battlefield?

A) Skinny and beautiful bard dressed in black w/ with a rapier and a dark-anti-hero look: 8 STR / 22 CHA

B) Enormous, partially deformed and acid burned snarling psychopathic berserker half orc with a spiked maul and foam dripping from his cleft-pallette: 22 STR / 3 CHA

By our current system, assuming both add equal ranks and are the same level, the bard will have a 10 point natural advantage since he's pretty & socially lubricated, and the orc is hideously ugly w/ 0 social skills. Put bluntly: Things will be vastly more likley to cower in fear from David Bowey than Sloth (from the Gooneys) on PCP.

Thats... hard to swollow.

If intimidation is going to be used in the way you describe, it really would be far better suited to being a STR based skill and get a synergy bonus for having "very" low CHA.

Large thuggish brutes laced in scars and muscles are vastly more intimidating than pretty musicians... but the intimidate skill rolls are probably not going to reflect this in game very often. Being pretty or outgoing is "not" a prerequisite of being terrifying looking... and if you have to "make" yourself seem terrifying, than its probably bluff or disguise.

I hope I don't come off as argumentive, I just love writing this kind of garbage.

[Laurk]

Do we fail our will saves against intimidation against him:



or him:

[wangxiuming]

This is my opinion: if the bard is a weakling, but he has 22 CHA (i.e., a commanding presence, the ability to lead), he may very well be the more intimidating person. He has the force of personality to accomplish with words what others can not. A super-buff orc with 3 charisma may be super strong, but does that necessarily mean people will offer him deference or fear him on sight? I wouldn't think so, especially if he only has 3 CHA. Disgust? Maybe.

I would also suggest that intimidation isn't necessarily restricted to scaring or frightening another person. It could be a noble coercing a peasant to do something he doesn't want to do, it could be a commander ordering a frenzied soldier to stand down. This suggests that intimidate is a skill used to change another's behavior - not necessarily to elicit fear alone.

This is exactly where our difference of opinion lies. I don't believe whether a character is intimidating is determined by looks alone. Force of personality and looks should both contribute. If you believe otherwise, that's fine, we can agree to disagree.

[sonuvalich]

Do we fail our will saves against intimidation against him:

I fail my will save vs. Bowie because the Goblin king's tights bulge ruined my childhood and haunts my dreams.

[bipolar bear]

I fail my will save vs. Bowie because the Goblin king's tights bulge ruined my childhood and haunts my dreams.

http://www.clipjunkie.com/Spinal-Tap...y-vid4953.html

2 things... 1 for those of you that are not old enough to have seen this movie that was principal skinner.
2 could you not gain bonuses to intimidate from both cha and str? and then everyone is happy.


and orcs rule.

[thaelis]

I actually agree with both sides of the argument. I think the highest of Str or Cha should be used on Intimidate checks.

The problem is that this would take away any vestige of usefulness Cha has in our online game (for warriors at least). In a PnP campaign it's easy to find ways to make Cha important. NPC's reactions can vary massively based on Cha, especially those of the opposite sex.

Sadly, I doubt that using higher of two stats for one skill is even possible using the NWN2 engine.

[cmosier]

Just saying. -2 Intelligence is plenty.



> Thanks for the help, Lugs. :-)

[Laurk]

She is not hot. She has fangs.

[OnyxTigress]

Where is it stated that fangs automatically makes someone unattractive?

[[DM] Grinning Death]

Where is it stated that fangs automatically makes someone unattractive?

[OnyxTigress]

Don't worry Nosferatu, there is someone out there who will love you for you.

[Laurk]

Couple things, while that picture "does" have tusks, those lips aren't wrapping around her tusks realistically and they didn't give her a pig nose... they gave her a cat nose. Orcs have pig noses. While this is a good attempt to depict a half orc woman who isn't horrible to look at, its a stretch. Still its not to say that you can't have half orcs whose human half is so stunning, that they wouldn't be viewed as "ugly" even to some humans.. its just, remove the tusks and the pig nose, and they'd be hotter. Hense the slightly lower average.

Take away the tusks and id put her charisma at least 2 higher.

Where is it stated that fangs automatically makes someone unattractive?

I said fangs, but I ment tusks. Tusks are ugly. Ask yourself, who is hotter: Miss America, or Miss America with her lips wrapped around tusks and a pig nose? Im guessing there's at least a 2 point charisma differance there.

Wangxiuming: Im still trying to work my way through this so in some ways im thinking out loud here: A nobleman coersing a peasant "is" scaring/frightening them. That's what coersion is, the threat of violence/pain to "force" someone to do what you want. Also, the noble doesn't need a single rank in "indimidate" to coerse a peasant because he can easily make good on his threats. It doesn't matter if its a brute threatning to clobber you, or a noble threatening to have you clobbered.

Example: If Lord Bob says to Marl, the dirty peasant: "You WILL scrub my privy or ill have your flesh flayed from your bones," Marl has a choice to make... scrub the privy, or have the flesh flayed from his bones. Just because Lord Bob has a lousy intimidate score doesn't mean that Marl isn't going to scrub that privy. The threat alone is more than enough to coerse his actions so long as Marl knows that Lord Bob can deliver.

Now if Marl didn't know who Lord Bob was, or realize that he was a noble with arbitrary authority and a bunch of thugs willing to carry out his reprehensible orders, Marl might be inclined to tell Lord Bob to go pike off. I suppose this is where ranks in intimidate might serve. Because now Lord Bob has to "convince" Marl that he's the real deal by scaring the piss out of Marl sufficiently that he scrubs the toilet. Since he isn't lying, its not bluff...

I suppose there are some people who might want to cultivate a reputation for flaying the flesh of peasant's bones so that they can easily intimidate with just a look... but there again, if they just flay a few peasants now and then in front of the masses, doesn't that pretty well accomplish that with 0 need of Charisma or ranks in intimidate? I guess thats my issue with the Intimdate skill. Your'e either intimidating because others know what you can and are willing to do by reputation, or you're not, and you have to fake it.

So to me, it seems the skill has to be for those times when you don't have a clear advantage/edge. You're unknown to your enemy and you wish to convince him that defying you is dangerous.

The massive scar laced berserking half orc with the 3 charisma doesn't need to roll in order to intimidate a dirty peasant into being afraid with a roll, because he ABSOLUTLEY CAN make good on his threats to tear the guys arms off and beat him to death with them. They both know it, so its up to the peasant at this point wether he wants to avoid that fate or not. On the other hand, that orc probably has no chance at intimidating him with threats of having him flogged in the public square if the peasant refuses to scrub his toilet, because the Peasant knows that this brute has no authority to do that in town.

So I guess my conclusion is that intimidate as a skill based on Charisma has to be for times when you don't actually have the means (or it is not known that you have them) to carry out your threat, and so you need to "convince" someone that you do, or at least make them doubt wether crossing you is worth the risk. This does differ from bluff when you aren't lying.

Edit: I bloody knew I should have went with Justin Biber... I forgot how scary the Goblin King's "bulge" was. Perhaps I blocked that out because of the terror during my childhood.