Spell Points

[thaelis]

Just wondering would the staff ever consider a magic system based on spell points? If it were thought out properly it would have the potential to make casters a lot more useful for long dungeons/events without increasing their power.

I've used a spell point mod for NWN2 previously and it was quite well implemented but a little overpowered thanks to the creator giving casters a number of spell points equal to the total number of spell levels they would usually be able to cast. So basically there was no downside...if you could cast 90 levels of spells before then you still could, just now in any combination!

It basically works like this. You never lose spells from your spellbook after casting, but instead your virtual pool of spell points is reduced. Costs range from 1 point for 1st level spells to 17 points for 9th level spells. Obviously, if your spell points fall too low then you lose the ability to cast spells. A low level caster might have 2-3 spell points, and high level 150+ points.

And if spell points regenerated, say at a rate of 1pt every two minutes, then a caster would more or less be able to use their low level spell indefinitely, whilst high levels spells would still be very limited.

As those who can divide can probably tell, 150-200pts is not a lot of spells compared to the normal amount you can cast (about half). That's always seemed to balance things out, at least in my PnP campaigns where we've always used spell points. I even made some custom feats that let people regen spell points faster.

EDIT: Anyway, this is just another of my random thoughts. I don't expect the staff have time to devote to something like this ><

[Nyssis]

In my opinion, a system like this only benefits prepared casters while making spontaneous ones invalidated. The incredibly limited pool of the spontaneous casters is currently balanced in that they can cast any spell in that repertoire whenever, whereas wizards/clerics/druids need to prepare their list intelligently to take full advantage of it.

Giving prepared casters the ability to constantly cast their spells may be good for dungeon running, but what of the spontaneous casters that only have access to a few abilities that can't be swapped on the fly to prepare for specific encounters?

Pvp would also become an even more imbalanced aspect of the game, where prepared casters would annihilate the mundanes. You could have a fighter burn through a druid's premonition and then he just reapplies it a round later. Or a wizard goes ethereal after every offensive burst if he's not built for save-or-lose.

Imagine being a rogue against a wizard with dimension door in addition to his control and damage soak spells. Or the amount of ZoRs that could be dropped down to make an assassin or anyone who relies on ethereal as a defense useless. While I do find the idea of spell points nice for pve in giving casters more viability in a dungeon, the fact that Sundren has pvp sours it for me.

[Kitsunestume]

I'm agreed with Nyssis on this one. While good for PvE, it heavily skews game balance towards prepared spell-casters being spontaneous casters with none of the drawbacks.

Once house rule I've got implemented in my P&P campaign is that spontaneous spell-casters use spell-points and prepared casters still need to prepare: Effectively spontaneous casters have even more flexibility, while still being limited. That being said, we also use the Vitalistic Spell-casting option: sure you can cast a bunch of spells, but you take stat debuffs the lower your magical reserves get.
However, due to the engine we have here, I don't really think that is an option.

[Cornuto]

...the amount of ZoRs that could be dropped down to make an assassin or anyone who relies on ethereal as a defense useless.

Like, one?

[thaelis]

Whilst it's true you are more flexible in that you can use any given spell more times, the that fact that your overall number of spells is about half means that if you are in a fight where you are going "all out" you better hope the fight is over quickly because if it isn't you're probably gonna run out of spells. ALL spells, not just high level ones.

Bear in mind that a high level Wizard right now can already memorise 5-8 copies of Etherealness (depending on their class an faction) if they choose to. And they would have many more spell slots left over for offensive spells to cast in between those Etherealnesses than a Wizard in a spell point system.

Re: Spontaneous casters, they are given a large boost in spell points to make up for the fact that memorisation-based casters steal some of their flexibility. So instead of 50% of normal they might get something like 75% (I can't remember the exact numbers).

[Kitsunestume]

For context:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm

I see difficulty working the KEY balance of spell-points into the game: the spell points you use casts it at MINIMUM level.

Even a thirtieth level caster using magic missile will still need to spend 9 spell-points to use it at maximum, whereas just dropping one will fire a single missile at 1d4+1.

Also, related to the rogue-fast-stealth controversy:

In effect, spell points make all classes work more like the sorcerer, and make the sorcerer (or bard) work even more like the sorcerer. In general, spellcasters become more powerful—though they aren’t capable of casting any spell they couldn’t cast before, they are now capable of casting more high-level spells per day and more of whichever spells they need

You'll be stepping on the toes of another classes' domain.

Just my observations, please feel free to be constructive and build off the evidence presented.

[Nyssis]

Like, one?

[Chocolate Radio]

Yes, but with this system, a wizard would only need to prepare one etherealness, and still have the rest of the spell slots for more unique specific spells... and then rely on any tactic that they may need. The prepared casters are already very powerful classes with access to many useful tools, and this would make them even more so, while undermining the strengths of spontaneous casters, and dropping non-casters into even more trouble trying to compete.

[cmosier]

I like the Vancian Spell Casting system... *hangs head in shame*

[Cornuto]

[thaelis]

For context:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm
I see difficulty working the KEY balance of spell-points into the game: the spell points you use casts it at MINIMUM level.

Ah, yeah....I never did use that rule! I didn't see the point in it nor did it particularly make sense to me. So if you want to make your magic missile CL 20 you have to spend 20 spell points? No one would do it, they would just cast a 9th level spell instead.

It balances fine without this rule as far as I can tell. The adventurers start out being all cocky and like "Haha! I can make all our swords +2 and Stoneskin the whole party!" but later realise they don't have any of those little things like mirror image or displacement left when they need it in that critical moment to save their life

Yes, but with this system, a wizard would only need to prepare one etherealness, and still have the rest of the spell slots for more unique specific spells... and then rely on any tactic that they may need. The prepared casters are already very powerful classes with access to many useful tools, and this would make them even more so, while undermining the strengths of spontaneous casters, and dropping non-casters into even more trouble trying to compete.

Speaking from experience it doesn't (at least not in Pnp). It opens up a whole lot of doors for what you can do, true, but at the same time it puts in novel limits.

The main reason I'm a proponent of this is that it would allow for some form of regeneration/restoration of spells over time, which the current system apparently does not allow for. Even if it's super slow regen.

[Jhickey]

I think it takes away the strategy involved in spell preparation, and use of each spell. Not to mention take away the only advantage of being a spontaneous caster provides. Not to be to jaded about the whole thing, but it seems more like a WoW system; and we should just change Wizard/sorcerer to "mage" and all melee classes to "warrior"

But that is just my take on the idea.

[Farmboy2003]

Seems an awful hassle compared to, say, using kaedrins reserve spellcasting feats.

[thaelis]

As for how much hassle it is, I'm not sure...the mod in the single player game seems pretty simple. Then again it also seems that most people are happy with the current system anyway!

So I think this one's definitely going in the stupid suggestions bucket.

[Kitsunestume]

:-/
I don't mean to shoot you down,but I think your examples aren't providing much support for your argument.

So if you want to make your magic missile CL 20 you have to spend 20 spell points? No one would do it, they would just cast a 9th level spell instead.

As per DMG guidelines, most spells have a cap by level of potential damage dice depending on: source(divine/arcane), single or multi-target, and spell-level. Magic Missile, a single-target 1st level arcane spell caps at 5d4+5 at caster-level 9. And indeed, there are other alternatives such as ILMS or IGMS which can provide a much greater damage output for the same general cost.

"Haha! I can make all our swords +2 and Stoneskin the whole party!" but later realise they don't have any of those little things like mirror image or displacement left when they need it in that critical moment to save their life

A well-planned caster already can, or a sorcerer with GMW/Stoneskin, without eating up many slots for the other mentioned spells.
Mirror Image is 2nd level, GMW and displace are third, and stoneskin is 4th level. With that same argument a current or theoretical spellcaster can buff party and have no space for fireballs (also 3rd level).

Speaking from experience it doesn't (at least not in Pnp).[. . .]

The main reason I'm a proponent of this is that it would allow for some form of regeneration/restoration of spells over time, which the current system apparently does not allow for.

P&P, as has come up in multiple discussions before, is ultimately regulated by a (supposedly) rational and lucid DM. That presence does not exist in the game unless one of our friendly staff is online and paying attention. Instead we have the NWN2 Engine, which is pretty awesome, but can't often judge in a reasonable manner. It would effective see wizards being sorcerers with the ability swap their spells about each day, and sorcerers as. . . sorcerers.

This is not to say I disagree with the intent. It would indeed be quite invigorating to see a means of preventing a spell-caster from being a buff-n-fluff role during adventures, but there are other means of doing so. I understand that the Staff is currently working on a means of recharging charged items, which would solve part of the problem. Another might be to see about items that slowly regenerate their charges on their own. Alternatively, true-spell-storing or Staffs (which should allow casting of the spells within at the user's DC).

[edit]It took me a while, and I got left behind in the conversation again, it seems.
Those feats would be an alternative, although I do understand we've had discussions before on the topic.
Likewise, if the spell-point mod you are discussions is for single-player, it probably cannot account for multiplater and PVP situations: After all, D&D was not particularly designed for inter-character conflict. Party-VS-World, rather than Party1-VS-Party2 with World on the side, if you will.

[Edit2] Happy to discuss things though ^_^