Add Fast Stealth to rogue bonus feats.

[Bloodriki]

When I look at this suggestion I think of a ranged fighter 10, rogue 2, assassin 8 build that would make people want to yank their hair from their scalp. 32hide/32ms 28 ranged AB moving at dashed 105% stealthed speed with a 5d6 SA and the capability of manyshot railing people from beyond the screen (which you can get to in one round in any engagement when you're bolting). When I played archers kiting was already silly, not only in pvp but also in pve dungeons.

The only way to have your cake here for the melee rogues would be to make it a bonus feat only available at rogue level 8 or 10+

[Kitsunestume]

5d6 SA and the capability of manyshot railing people from beyond the screen (which you can get to in one round in any engagement when you're bolting). When I played archers kiting was already silly, not only in pvp but also in pve dungeons.

If you would not mind, could you please clarify the term 'Beyond the screen'?
If you are reffering to the targeting of opponents no longer visible due to distance, then I am left confused as to how the sneak-attack makes a difference. It appears from your phraseology that the additional dice of damage can be applied at distances greater than the radius of the Low-Light-Vision circle (30 feet), which I can agree would indeed be overpowered.

Cheers,
Kit

[Lugwy]

Open with Manyshot from afar, then get up close and plug with SA damage. If/When your target turns to you after the sneaky ouchies, HIPS, skedaddle and repeat entire process until either you hit the limit of HIPS uses the server rules permit, or the target is dead (the likelier outcome).

That's one strategy I can think of.

[Kitsunestume]

Seems like a bit of a waste if you have Death attack though. :-/
Either A) you use the vanilla Death-attack and they make a fort save VS free sneak-attacks for a minute, or B) you use the new Death-attack and they make a fort save VS instagib. Both of which rely on the target being out of combat and within 30 feet when you initiate.

Due to the maximum distance for sneak-attack, it seems almost entirely at odds with kiting from distance. Either you are at range or you are easily within retaliation distance within 6 seconds. I could see possibilities where one could be unreachable while within the SA distance, but that involves tactical use of terrain and isn't likely to change.
I think my point is that I am confused how stealth-ed move speed would make a difference for this build.

[Lugwy]

Mobility. A "gunship" build is pretty silly squishy, and so they rely on positioning and being able to move quickly to stay alive. Abilities that let them move around faster more often is a huge benefit for them.

The argument was not that it should or should not be implemented, but when to implement it, thus my wanting to put it in as one of the 10+ rogue bonus feats.

[Valhalla]

Mobility. A "gunship" build is pretty silly squishy, and so they rely on being able to move quickly to stay alive.

I can second Lugwy's point here. Having recently leveled and PvP'd alongside a HiPS archer, currently the strongest limiting factor they have is a lack of mobility while stealthed.

Just a brief example: Archer shoots Fighter, starting a PvP. Fighter charges Archer, Archer HiPSes.

Without fast stealth, said archer has to walk away slowly and will take some time to get far enough away from the fighter to be able to safely come out for a round of shooting. In that time, said fighter can be quaffing potions of heal, mirrors image, displacement, haste (and so on) to minimize the effects of the archer.

By comparison, if you've got fast stealth you can HiPS, spend a round hauling ass, turn around and immediately open up with another round of shooting (and thus be safe to HiPS once more) and vastly cut down on the free rounds you're giving your opponent.

And that's if you're PvPing alone. If you're in a group, it minimizes the time you spend being dead weight, too.

[Kitsunestume]

Mobility. A "gunship" build is pretty silly squishy, and so they rely on positioning and being able to move quickly to stay alive. Abilities that let them move around faster more often is a huge benefit for them.
The argument was not that it should or should not be implemented, but when to implement it, thus my wanting to put it in as one of the 10+ rogue bonus feats.

I think I may have left my brain at home today, as I'm pretty sure you've explained it but I don't see the connections.
I'm seeing 2 situations for post-first-strike:
If you are relying on HiPS and if the target can't see you, it's moot point how fast you go unless they run away, at which point they are probably out of your sneak-attack distance anyway, and even stealthing at full speed* would just leave you at constant distance unless they were slowed some how (See Crippling Strike).
If you don't use HiPS or the target can see you through it anyway, you can't use Sneak-attacks, would probably be better off just decking it to the nearest LoS-break, and your squishyness comes into play.

*-Full Speed being defined as [Walk 30']. This case would not be true if the individual has access to speed enhancement spells like Longstrider: available to every 4th level ranger, or Persisted Expeditious Retreat: restricted to casters of 7th level arcane spells, so probably Arcane-Tricksters for this situation.
I do understand that going faster than full speed would be a significant boon, but thats largely true across the board.

Again, if I seem a bit dense (or moreso than usual), I do appologise.
Cheers,
Kit

[Edit]: @Valhalla, Thank you for the example. I had failed to account for responsive actions.
In counterpoint, that argument suggests that those gaining the benefit from the feat are not those intended to be using it. It does not take very long to reach the boundary for dealing sneak-attack, and the primary intended purpose (as I understand it) is to allow a rogue or other precision based damage dealer the ability to close with an opponent.
My counter-suggestion is then as such: Rather than have it tied to a particular level, the fast-stealth feat could be tied to Sneak-attack dice (though I am aware there are quite a few sources, each with their own feats).
Another solution might be to have (and I am entirely aware the infrastructure may not exist to support this), but an free-action ability, usable once a minute, that grants full speed during stealth for one round. This allows for skirmish fighters do do their thing, but in limited ability with a decent delay: Get into position and do your thing, stay there for a time, then move elsewhere. Rangers would thus have the constant fast-movement everywhere all-the-time outdoors, and thus remain superior in their element.

[cmosier]

Must avoid delicious temptation that is this thread...

[Lotus]

Needlessly complicating an ability that should simply be reserved as a 10+ Rogue talent.

[cmosier]

Needlessly complicating an ability that should simply be reserved as a 10+ Rogue talent.

*twitches* :-)

[Valhalla]

In counterpoint, that argument suggests that those gaining the benefit from the feat are not those intended to be using it.

That was poorly phrased on my part. I was just trying to provide an example for what I saw as Lugwy's point about mobility being a big deal.

[Lugwy]

The quicker a rogue can get into position, the more hits they can get in.

[Bloodriki]

As an archer, staying within range to open with the sneak attack dice is just an option. A rather tempting one since Death Attack gets applied to every round of a manyshot. I mentioned bolting and shooting from a screen away because it was a favored tactic for taking down clerics/mages, as there is in fact a range limitation on bigby.

[thaelis]

Needlessly complicating an ability that should simply be reserved as a 10+ Rogue talent.

^see above

I can second Lugwy's point here. Having recently leveled and PvP'd alongside a HiPS archer, currently the strongest limiting factor they have is a lack of mobility while stealthed.

Just a brief example: Archer shoots Fighter, starting a PvP. Fighter charges Archer, Archer HiPSes.

Without fast stealth, said archer has to walk away slowly and will take some time to get far enough away from the fighter to be able to safely come out for a round of shooting. In that time, said fighter can be quaffing potions of heal, mirrors image, displacement, haste (and so on) to minimize the effects of the archer.

By comparison, if you've got fast stealth you can HiPS, spend a round hauling ass, turn around and immediately open up with another round of shooting (and thus be safe to HiPS once more) and vastly cut down on the free rounds you're giving your opponent.

And that's if you're PvPing alone. If you're in a group, it minimizes the time you spend being dead weight, too.

...and above

[Valhalla]

Right.

I was saying "This is why mobility is key, which I've seen because a leveling friend went 3-20 with the exact build people are talking about here." You'll note I was actually agreeing with Lugwy, who said they think it should just be a 10+ talent (which happens to be my opinion too). Bang up job on the reading comprehension there, really.