Add Fast Stealth to rogue bonus feats.

[Doubtful]

OK, Maybe 10+ is a little harsh. How about 4 or 6 plus?

[Lotus]

10+ isn't harsh. Full movement while stealthed is tremendous.

[Cornuto]

OK, Maybe 10+ is a little harsh. How about 4 or 6 plus?

2 still seems fine to me. Even at 4 it puts it on the same level 'dip' requirement we put on HiPS, and its not even in the same ballpark in terms of mechanical strength.

[cmosier]

OK, Maybe 10+ is a little harsh. How about 4 or 6 plus?

Level Four is a fair compromise; to avoid level dipping. Personally, with everybody thinking rangers need a little extra something, what's two levels of rogue to give them that edge?

10+ isn't harsh. Full movement while stealthed is tremendous.

I'll agree to disagree. I'm curious to see how it plays out and I'm willing to play test rogues if you want. Just ask.

[Lotus]

You guys are really underestimating mobility in both PvP and PvE. Movement and positioning matter, and every round counts. This isn't something that should be granted with trivial investment.

[Cornuto]

I'm not seeing it... what build is going to become scary if they get normal movement speed while stealthed? (Other than some dedicated HiPS sneaker which already requires heavy investment).

Monks?

[Lotus]

Any ranged weapon build. There's a reason Rangers have to go 13 Ranger and then it only works outside. People are proposing to take something Rangers get after level 10, make it better, and give it within 2, 4, or 6 levels. Come on, dudes. Full speed while stealthed is extremely powerful; you should have to make a healthy investment into the Rogue class if you want to roll that way. Less than 10 levels isn't that investment.

[Cornuto]

Pathfinder is proposing that.

Stealth by itself isn't amazing. HiPS makes it strong, and that already requires investment.

[Lugwy]

It's the other way around. Fast Stealth makes HiPS even stronger than it already is, and I won't be holding my breath for people to not take the two in tandem.

Even without HiPS, don't underestimate rogues. For a class that lives or dies by their wits and ability to get the jump on targets of opportunity, the ability to be able to quickly position themselves to achieve a strategic position--or heck, a sneak attack prelude--is a huge boon.

It's also an ability that, realistically*, should not be achieved easily. It should be more under the territory of one who's lived like that long enough to grok and apply the how-to, not scrubby taffers off the streets--or whatever the equivalent of a low-level rogue would be.


*For a given definition of "realistically", since, y'know, FR.

[Farmboy2003]

Any ranged weapon build. There's a reason Rangers have to go 13 Ranger and then it only works outside. People are proposing to take something Rangers get after level 10, make it better, and give it within 2, 4, or 6 levels. Come on, dudes. Full speed while stealthed is extremely powerful; you should have to make a healthy investment into the Rogue class if you want to roll that way. Less than 10 levels isn't that investment.

this! Also, I can't see rangers dipping 2 levels for an ability they get at lvl 13, prolonging bane of enemies and one shot/PTWF

[Kitsunestume]

It's apparently that there would likely be a brief increase in rogue population if this were implemented, but based on the statistics gathered from a 3 minute look at the Statistics page, we've has 593 active characters in the past 30 days, 9 of which are Shadow-dancers (the 'primary' source of HiPS concern).
Rangers would get the capacity by level 17 to Move/HiPS, and Assassins by level 13(5+8)(who have been represented by greater than 10 characters over the past month), while Shadow-dancers could indeed get the capacity at 11th level(7+4).

this! Also, I can't see rangers dipping 2 levels for an ability they get at lvl 13, prolonging bane of enemies and one shot/PTWF

I would agree that Farmboy's assessment is probably correct, as the ability to add 2d6 damage to favored enemies from any distance on each attack six times a round (rather than the 30ft limitation for damage bonus of all stealth classes who cap at about 3 attacks at level 21, 4 with Rapid Shot, 6 dual-wielding in melee distance) - combined with the [effectively ranger unique] ability to instacrit once a minute or take ten attacks a round in melee - probably helps the ability to shoot and scoot and takes preference over a two level dip for minimal gain.

[Cornuto]

It's the other way around. Fast Stealth makes HiPS even stronger than it already is, and I won't be holding my breath for people to not take the two in tandem.

Agreed, but I didn't argue to the contrary. As I said, stealth, without HiPS, isn't all that great. As its a one-and-done per encounter unless you're somehow able to break line-of-sight (which isn't that easy). There's a reason we've likely never had a pure rogue go to level 20 on the server. If you're playing a class that relies on stealth, you aren't going to do much without HiPS. I think HiPS based classes are likely the only ones who'd see a real benefit from the feat. As HiPS already requires going outside of the rogue class, forcing a rogue to either give up on crippling strike or build to level 13 in the base class seems like unnecessary and selective balancing of a class that isn't exactly taking over the server with its awesome power.

Any ranged weapon build.

Additional mobility makes a ranged build better, but this feat wouldn't make you move any faster (people may be used to seeing it on rangers who are usually running at haste-speed thanks to longstrider). I don't see an arcane archer or longbow focused fighter as enjoying all that much benefit from this. Stealth isn't going to be a major tool in their combat encounters. A 2-level dip into druid to get longstrider and woodland stride would probably benefit them more than this feat.

[Jhickey]

I suppose I will throw my hat into the ring here.

I like the idea of this ability/feat. I think it would help the rogue class immensely. I also understand everyone's weariness about the dip/power build scenarios that can come out of this. I think there is not much you can do about the people that do this (in fact we all do to an extent) It happens, allow them to have their builds the way they see fit. Or come to a compromise like having a few other feats abilities before you can take it. it beats the level 10+ thing.

The rogue is a staple fantasy archetype that, and I personally love being in a part with them and even playing one. As with fighters now too, I love having one along with me, no matter the capacity. The point is that the suggestion was a way to improve the Rogue as a class, and we should all be happy that the possibility to improve our options/variety for our server.

I also agree that the ability should be balanced to the other classes; even if Ranger has not gone under the knife for plastic surgery yet. so there should be some sort of balance involved. But if e need to counter balance the Ranger at the same time lets create ideas for Corn and the other developers to mull over and discuss implementation.

On a side not and slightly on topic, The reason the 3.0/3.5 system is so great is the options for customization provided. If we can think of a something (class combo) that few have ever seen before, we have the ability to do that while providing the 4 major archetypes in a DnD group. We all play here for a reason, whatever it is that is your choice; but I don't play games like WoW because I hate to have a build that is a carbon copy of 10,000 other people; I like coming up with fun and crazy builds, crazy RP situations, and differing personality types.

That is all I have; Sadly I have a class soon (ethics and health care); not a fun class at all.

[thaelis]

Think of it this way Corny. Regardless of whether the ability is superpowered or not, right now Rangers are the only stealth class that can run Outdoors. With the proposed change they would become the only stealth class that cannot run indoors.

In other words becoming even lamer than they already are. There is very little rangers can do that a Fighter/rogue can't do better and this is one of those things.

[Cornuto]

Think of it this way Corny. Regardless of whether the ability is superpowered or not, right now Rangers are the only stealth class that can run Outdoors. With the proposed change they would become the only stealth class that cannot run indoors.

In other words becoming even lamer than they already are. There is very little rangers can do that a Fighter/rogue can't do better and this is one of those things.

Agreed, rangers need some love.