Add Fast Stealth to rogue bonus feats.

[cmosier]

I wouldn't want Disable Traps as a class skill. I wouldn't even have 10 spare skill points to put in it let-alone the 23 necessary to be a decent trap disabler (High-level dungeons have DC's 33-34 to disable, 43-44 to recover). And I imagine my Intelligence is higher than most Rangers.

I'd be fine with them getting this ability at level 2 on the presumption that at some point in the future Rangers will get some lovin' too

I actually love rangers and had one in my party in Eye of the Beholder, just for principle. I haven't made one yet because 1. Byrun keeps me pretty busy. 2. I heard changes were coming to the ranger and I don't like hassling for a remake.

[Mournas]

So what I'm hearing... Wizards/ Sorcerers can call meteors. Clerics can summon powerful outsiders. Druids can change into greater elementals. Dain can cause 200 damage to evil and undead. Fighters are broken. Monks get insane attacks per round. But a fast moving stealthy rogue is too far?

Fixed that for you ^_^

No, if they want rogues to have fast stealth, let it happen I have been dreaming of this for a long time, but the implications are that it would be extremely broken.

[cmosier]

I can vouch that a paladin with unlimited heals is not an easy fight for a 20th level fighter. Luck plays a decent role. Alianna mentioned she can cause 200 damage to undead, that's where I got that number from.

If you're looking at in from a pure PvP point, maybe. But then I could argue Shadow Simulacrum is broken. It's still just rogues moving fast while using stealth. A high level Spirit Shaman or Druid can easily make this ability pointless. Just as being immune to Critical Hits really puts a damper on 20th level fighters.

[LOLC2k]

Fixed that for you ^_^

No, if they want rogues to have fast stealth, let it happen I have been dreaming of this for a long time, but the implications are that it would be extremely broken.

I despise rogues, and I still think it's probably a good idea.

[Torgar]

Fighters are not broken. They are quite fixed now. They are the best in a straight up melee fight. Like they should be, since that's their NAME. Fighters. As in, people who are fighting. All the time. Being better at it as a baseline then any other class is what they should be doing, just like paladins should hit evil harder then anyone, barbarians should have massive hp and high strength, and samurai's should be renamed and put allowed to be played because STR based dual-wielder in full plate is freaking awesome.

...I miss my samurai.

[Lugwy]

Why in the name of baby bananas are you fighting a fighter on their terms?

My beef isn't that rogues are getting the ability. Personally (and having put up with similar things in DDO and other games), I'd love the ability for rogues to do faster sneakery. What bugs me is if the feat comes without prerequisites; what's stopping me from, say, just taking a ranger build and splashing 2 rogue levels to nab the talent feat--thus bypassing the environment restriction--and plugging in a decent enough backstory to explain the dip for curious DMs?

If it's made a talent feat, give it a prerequisite such as Stealthy/Shadow or Dash, for a forumer's example.

[cmosier]

Why in the name of baby bananas are you fighting a fighter on their terms?

My beef isn't that rogues are getting the ability. Personally (and having put up with similar things in DDO and other games), I'd love the ability for rogues to do faster sneakery. What bugs me is if the feat comes without prerequisites; what's stopping me from, say, just taking a ranger build and splashing 2 rogue levels to nab the talent feat--thus bypassing the environment restriction--and plugging in a decent enough backstory to explain the dip for curious DMs?

If it's made a talent feat, give it a prerequisite such as Stealthy/Shadow or Dash, for a forumer's example.

This sounds more like an issue with level dipping in general, which I can agree with. I don't approve of punishing rogues for bad RP. Also, I still don't see the problem with a ranger taking two rogue levels to get this.

[Cornuto]

What bugs me is if the feat comes without prerequisites; what's stopping me from, say, just taking a ranger build and splashing 2 rogue levels to nab the talent feat--thus bypassing the environment restriction--and plugging in a decent enough backstory to explain the dip for curious DMs?

Why does this bug you?

[Lotus]

I think if we did it, we'd implement it as a 10 Rogue Talent (could be chosen at Rogue levels 10, 13, 16, 19).

[Ditto]

I think Lugwy's point is that getting the feat without a caveat will encourage dipping just for the benefit (see: Shadowdancer and HiPS). It's a very strong feat for the stealthy types and not all of them are rogues.

[Torgar]

I fail to see how, in the end, a rogue being fast at stealth in ANY WAY affects how you play your classes. They don't get Hide in Plain sight unless they level in a prestige class, so they can't just disappear in front of you. As for assassins who DO get hide in plain sight and the extra sneak attack and so forth, again, who cares? IT doesn't change how they can get away from you any more then before. Either you can see them, in which case fast stealth is no different for them then normally running, or you can't, and they are going to reposition or get away regardless of their speed.

So I really don't see any issue with rogues, or anyone taking 2 levels of rogue, getting fast stealth. It affects literally 0% of us in any real fashion. If something doesn't hurt the other classes, and helps a class that is still a little weak compared to the others, then just give it to them. They are so insanely gear dependant to be effective in pvp anyways, that a feat isnt' going to unbalance them in the end.

[Cornuto]

I think Lugwy's point is that getting the feat without a caveat will encourage dipping just for the benefit (see: Shadowdancer and HiPS). It's a very strong feat for the stealthy types and not all of them are rogues.

... why is this bad? People multiclass to get benefits all the time. This isn't really a game-changer to the extent HiPS is.

[cmosier]

I think if we did it, we'd implement it as a 10 Rogue Talent (could be chosen at Rogue levels 10, 13, 16, 19).

I really couldn't see myself wasting a precious Level 10+ Rogue feat to move quickly while hiding. Maybe that's why I'm trying to push for it being available at level 2. Others might. I enjoy my rogues and will hopefully have another chance to play one, regardless of the decision. :-)

[Ditto]

... why is this bad? People multiclass to get benefits all the time. This isn't really a game-changer to the extent HiPS is.

Probably to avoid another of the same problem that moved Shadowdancer HiPS to level 4.

On a final note, combine Fast Stealth with HiPS for delight.

[bipolar bear]

how about a feat cost.. you need dodge and mobility to get spring attack.. how about requireing dash and maybe another?

gonna quote myself here.. I think this is ok, as long as a few prerequisite feats are in place, and skill level ( to be determined by staff)... dash and skill focus "stealth". just my thought. if your gonna get a cool ability I think you have too pay for it.


this is coming from an avid rogue lover.