Fix/Disable Retributive Invisibility

[roguethree]

Combat

The normally carefree pixies ferociously attack evil creatures and unwanted intruders. They take full advantage of their invisibility and other abilities to harass and drive away opponents.
Greater Invisibility (Su)

A pixie remains invisible even when it attacks. This ability is constant, but the pixie can suppress or resume it as a free action.

I've pretty well summarized the argument in my previous post.

Edit for additional info: Greater Invisibility and Improved Invisibility are the same thing, I'm pretty sure.

[Cornuto]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040921a

Here you go.

[Seheren]

No, they are different.. Improved invis means that the invis does not break until the spell is over. Attacking does not bring you out.

[Cornuto]

No, they are different.. Improved invis means that the invis does not break until the spell is over. Attacking does not bring you out.

That's the same thing as greater invisibility.

[Seheren]

You still get attacked by anything you attack or is close enough to you IG. They dont all just stand around, except on rare occasions.

[roguethree]

Invisibility, Greater

Illusion (Glamer)

Level: Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 4 Components: V, S Target: You or creature touched Duration: 1 round/level (D) Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) This spell functions like invisibility, except that it doesn’t end if the subject attacks.

So it's the same as Greater Invisibility.

A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).

Listen Check DCs to Detect Invisible Creatures Invisible Creature Is… DC In combat or speaking 0 Moving at half speed Move Silently check result Moving at full speed Move Silently check result -5 Running or charging Move Silently check result -20 Some distance away +1 per 10 feet Behind an obstacle (door) +5 Behind an obstacle (stone wall) +15 A creature can use hearing to find an invisible creature. A character can make a Listen check for this purpose as a free action each round. A Listen check result at least equal to the invisible creature’s Move Silently check result reveals its presence. (A creature with no ranks in Move Silently makes a Move Silently check as a Dexterity check to which an armor check penalty applies.) A successful check lets a character hear an invisible creature “over there somewhere.” It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature’s location.

A creature can grope about to find an invisible creature. A character can make a touch attack with his hands or a weapon into two adjacent 5-foot squares using a standard action. If an invisible target is in the designated area, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has successfully pinpointed the invisible creature’s current location. (If the invisible creature moves, its location, obviously, is once again unknown.)

If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck still knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location.

If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has pinpointed, he attacks normally, but the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment (and thus a 50% miss chance). A particularly large and slow creature might get a smaller miss chance.

If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has not pinpointed, have the player choose the space where the character will direct the attack. If the invisible creature is there, conduct the attack normally. If the enemy’s not there, roll the miss chance as if it were there, don’t let the player see the result, and tell him that the character has missed. That way the player doesn’t know whether the attack missed because the enemy’s not there or because you successfully rolled the miss chance.
A creature with the scent ability can detect an invisible creature as it would a visible one.

These are all of the methods available to PnP characters to interact with invisible creatures. The Obsidian engine does not support this. Therefore, Greater Invisibility was coded to remove the invisibility affect and grant the formerly invisible creature 50% concealment, which is what invisible creatures get when they're attacked. Retributive Invisibility does not play by this rule and is therefore broken.

Search it before stating it . . .

[Seheren]

I'm confused.. So since the spell for wizards doesn't work as intended.. Its broken.


It can be fixed, I am just lost as to why r3 seems to think that it cant work as per PnP. I can see that you can't interact exactly the same way, but you can still hear them...

[Cornuto]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040921a

When you can't see a creature (for whatever reason), you still can attack it, but first you must determine or guess at its location on the battlefield.

If you locate an unseen creature (or you're just guessing where it is), you can direct a melee or ranged attack into that location.

Because you cannot see the creature, your attack has a 50% miss chance.

Cast invisibility, or Walk-Unseen and run through the Viridale. Notice how nothing attacks you? That's because being invisible = true in NWN2 doesn't mean the same thing as being invisible in PnP.

Arguing that 'PnP says I get to be invisible all the time so the game should let me be invisible = true' doesn't make sense because you're getting way too much benefit. Instead, you get the PnP benefits of being invisible (50% concealment) but stuff still attacks you.

[Seheren]

I understand, but you do still get attacked by anything you attack. I am not saying 'No you can't change!' I am just stating that it works as it is stated in PnP, and IG you still get attacked, just only by things that you attack first. While other things don't work at all, it seems like a pretty low priority.

[Torgar]

The only way for it to work IG the EXACT way it is supposed to work in pnp is if it briefly took you out of invis and gave you 50% concealment after you did something, but if you moved further then 5 feet from that spot it then put invis back on you to mimic the fact the enemy now no longer knows where you are. However, that is a LOT of work for them to implement on a spell and an invocation, when it is just easier to make retributive invis just be at-will greater invis. Which I would kill for on any character I played ever, honestly. At-will 50% concealment after I attacked once from invis, that I can just reapply after every fight is pretty awesome anyways.

So yes Seheren, you are right. G.invis does not "drop" in PnP when you attack, but since we can only work with the game engine the game is built around, the spell is broken for the purposes of combat. And lets be honest, I think we would all prefer the fix to be "It works like G.invis period, which means it breaks after you attack and you get 50%" then for way more mobs to be given see invis innately to combat those who have the capability to run extremely difficult area's meant for groups, by themselves because they can never be targeted by any mob in there.

In the end, it really is just old game engines that can't work the ability like it should be worked. It's sucky, but that's just how it is.

[Cornuto]

I'll bring it up in the DEV forum to see how the staff as a whole wants to address it.

Thanks for bringing it to our attention, and for the record I don't believe anyone currently playing is trying to exploit by using this. Its just a weird NWN2 vs PnP goofball thing.

[Seheren]

So it's the same as Greater Invisibility.

IG its Improved, and its the Invis made for pixies.

In game.

[Torgar]

Ok, bud, been doing dnd for 21 years now, and trust me, pixie invis IS greater invis, just at will and with no set duration. But it is, in every sense of mechanics and how it works, Greater invisibility. It is called "improved" because it lasts longer, so it is an improvement. But all it is is at-will, infinite duration, suppressable greater invisibility.

Which, yes, you BASICALLY get, but you only get an at-will, normal duration Greater invisibility. It's greater invisibility.

Improved Invisibility= Greater invis+ no ending duration.
Retributive Invisibility= Greater invis+ damage if it's dispelled.
Retributive Invisibility= Improved invisibility with an ending duration+damage if it's dispelled.

Hopefully this has cleared up any confusion. It's just greater invisibility at-will. It does some damage around you if someone manages to dispell it. That's it.

[Cornuto]

... you do still get attacked by anything you attack. I am not saying 'No you can't change!' I am just stating that it works as it is stated in PnP, and IG you still get attacked, just only by things that you attack first. While other things don't work at all, it seems like a pretty low priority.

That's still a lot better than what I understand PnP rules to be, but its not as bad as I originally thought. Like I said, I'll bring it up in the staff forum and see what everyone's thoughts are.

[Seheren]

I meant IG, otherwise yes, you are right. I meant that Obsidian made it improved invis as the persistent invis for pixies, and selected that same to portray warlock invis. Pixies in PnP get the greater R3 pointed that out, I just didn't elaborate that I meant in NWN2 they made the improved invis for pixies not PnP. It is the invisible trait given to pixies in NWN2 which allows mobs to still attack you, trust me I've died and been close many times.

Edit: Perhaps this works differently with PC's? I've never used pixie form as MoMF or used my Warlock in PvP, so I can't say.