Zone of Revelation reveals too much?

[Sonja BloodRayne]

I say get rid of the god damn spell so ppl will quit bitching about it already.

[Torgar]

I play, as most of the people who play any kind of stealther know, Tigen Amastacia, the anti-rogue as I have once been called. I actually got into a bit of a fight with the rogue faction, ebon coin, and had to fight the very best of the best in stealth. It was actually fun, with us going back and forth, improving our perception (me) or stealth (them) to new heights. That being said, at the end of the day, with a wisdom of +10 thanks to lvl 20 owls insight, max ranks, and alertness (shaman's get it for free), I would sit at a 36 spot/listen. I then bought the only real spot gear on the server, the lesser robe of eyes, for +10 spot/search, so I had a 46 spot.

You would think this would guarentee me spotting every rogue, no matter what, since as stated, the stealthers only are able to hit 40's.

Except that isn't true, and everyone who plays a rogue knows this. I know this, you know this, the DM's know this. At a 46, I can not spot the rogues who are were comeing after me, not at all. Because they can have scores that sit in the 70's and 80's BEFORE ROLLING. I say all this to show that a class was leveled up with a feat to hear better, see better, a spell that makes those two skills that much better, and max ranks, not to mention he's an elf, for another bonus, and he still wasn't good enough. Having one, and only one, spell to counter that isn't that powerful. In DnD there are actually several spells that are supposed to counter stealth. True seeing "does" see through hide in plain sight, as it's a supernatural ability, therefore magical, and true seeing states it see's through "all" magical means of obfuscation. Dragon sight gives blindsight and blindsense, the blindsight spell gives, surprise surprise, blindsight, and if you really want to get down to it, with all the magic gear rogues wear, detect magic finds them in 2 rounds, since on round two, you see the location of magical aura's. However, that is PnP, and in NWN2, those spells simply don't work that way, and there is no real way to code it that way anyways.

Look, at the end of the day, yes, the major weapons in the rogue arsenal are hiding and sneak attack. But, if that was all they had, then they aren't a class. You want to kill a cleric that throws out a ZoR? Bring a buddy rogue. He can only fight one of you at a time, the other gets to stab his ass in the back. Or use bluff, and feint him, lord knows that is a broken feat anyways, being able to use it multiple times in a round instead of as a move action for one attack. Truth is, as a rogue, you shouldn't always be thinking "How can I be by myself and beat everyone just using hide/ms?" There is a reason that it's called a thieves guild, and not a thieves "bunch of solitary guys who live in one big house where they keep the stuff they steal".

And as a side note, ZoR states it suppresses Etherealness and invisibility effects, not dispells them. What that means in PnP terms, is that a suppressed spell is still on the person, it's effects are simply not working. When you are not longer suppressed, the effect starts working again. Dispelling is....well it's dispelling, I dont' think I have to get into that one. Therefore, ZoR works against etherealness and invisibility exactly correct, it's simply that suppression does not exist in NWN2, so it defaults to dispelling. It's unfortunate, but that's how things work when on an online game. True seeing is supposed to let you target ethereal as well, but you can't, so the fact that one spell works like it should, should be applauded, not torn apart and discarded.

All the differing points are valid, GBX is right, we need to balance the gear so that the skills balance themselves without the need of high lvl spells to balance it for us. Philosopher is right, the spell shouldn't work on stealth. Bedlam is right, the spell is working as it states, it's actually working closer to it's PnP version then most other spells seem to. What I'm getting at, is that yes, things are a bit unbalanced NOW, but it is going to get better. I know for a fact the staff has been hard at work on the gear on this server, upgrading, balancing, and improving all of it. Just ask roguethree and the other members of the Triumvirate who were around four months ago. That store was HORRIBLE. But thanks to the hard work of the staff, Cornuto especially, the store got a major overhaul. I know for a fact, GBX has been on his player account, going around and looking into the factions and their stores, and he and the staff have had long discussions about how to modify and improve EVERY faction store, and the general stores that we all have access too. Staff play class's and PRC's to see how they compare, and what is broken on them, and then they are working hard to fix it. If ZoR is truely broken, then it's going to be fixed, regardless of the amount of whining we all make about it. If it's not changed, it's because the staff talked it out, and determined nothing was broken. This isn't a matter of Caster vs. melee, although that is what seems to happen to EVERY post on the forums lately. The entirety of this post is weather or not a spell is working as it's supposed to, not how powerful it is, or how it is OP, or anything else. We have to remember to keep this to a technical appraisal of a spell, and not let this degenerate into another long flame fest of who's got the biggest NWN2 penis, casters or non casters.

Sorry for the exceedingly long rant. I don't post very often, so I tend to get rather long winded when I do post. The main point is, the spell works as it's supposed to, and once the skills are able to balance themselves out without it needing to pull people out of stealth, then that portion of it will probably be removed. It's a temporary band-aid, for when the real problem can be fixed. Then the band-aid can be changed or removed. Until then, I would like to think we are all big boy's and girls, and deal with a minor inconvenience. Thanks again to the staff for all the hard work, and thanks to the rest of you who were able to read all the way to the end of this post.

[Peridan]

I object to the word 'p3nis' in your post.

[Cornuto]

I object to the same in your post.

[Kangleton]

If you can't spot stealthers as a Spirit Shaman, you have a bad build.

[roguethree]

Back under the bridge with you, troll.

[Mournas]

Holy Thread Necro Batman! ....

Anyways, first and foremost, There should be a way to fight stealthy opponents. However just because you cast this spell does not mean you have Line of Sight on them. If the character is still behind something then unless you have Xray Vision there is no need to use the spell unless you're just a paranoid psycho.

Also, there are plenty of ways to Hear Epic Sneaks. They Invest the skills and the feats to be that damn good then so should you. Before Mythradin was Permakilled he had a +58 to Listen at 16th level.

Any race with the trait Keen Senses rolls a Spot and Listen Check 6x a round vs the Stealthed opponents 1x a round so even if you have a 20% chance to detect them that 20% chance is actually much higher.

If zone of revelation is a stealthed opponents undoing then ALL non magical fighters and Stealthers should be given a similar item that causes 100% spell failure to be a casters undoing. Sounds fair to me.

If you did not devote the proper skills/feats/and Item slots to detect a stealthed opponent then boohoo, that is your failure that a stealthed opponent should be eligible to capitalize on.

[FoogooFish]

As someone who plays a character with Hide/MS and a very high Listen skill... I have no problems with Zone of Revelation. A cleric would have to prepare the spell in advance; a favored soul would have to sacrifice another good spell to take it. There has to be thought going into the decision - just like a character put thought into being a stealther.

The only reason Emiliana can detect stealthers is because bards get great +Listen spells. I have my base skill and spells to push the skill into the territory where most stealthers have their Hide/MS (Emiliana included). I have no items that help the skill.

Seto is right: Zone of Revelation is the one counter to the lack of Spot/Listen enhancements. Leave the spell as it stands.

My stance now is the same as it was back then. I will also note that this thread necromancy is in response to my character using a ZoR scroll to pop two stealthers into sight.

[roguethree]

also, there are plenty of ways to hear epic sneaks. They invest the (stupid amount of hide/ms gear) and spells (that rangers, rogues, etc. Don't have) to be that damn good then so should you.

ftfy.

[Mournas]

My stance now is the same as it was back then. I will also note that this thread necromancy is in response to my character using a ZoR scroll to pop two stealthers into sight.

Though, you also had line of sight and you also already knew they were there.

[Root]

Make one of the custom feats (like the now-useless Grapple) into a 'Call Out' ability that temporarily inflicts -50 Hide/MS on someone, if that's possible (change range for it and effect, not sure how possible it is though).

Main fault with stealthers is that with HiPS, it goes from the balanced

'I can initiate combat when I choose, at a situation favourable to me, to account for my poor ability in 1v1 melee against a prepared opponent'

to

'I can easily kill any enemy without the skills to spot me by getting a full round of sneak attacks, holding 'S', and disappearing before they can react, thanks to the absense of core PnP rules like readied actions and bugs from lazy Obsidian developers like detection timing and round start delays. And can probably 1v5 an entire party like this'

I really, really wish Obsidian had implemented it properly.

[Doubtful]

A longer timer on the HiPS cool down or a larger minimum distance from hostiles before stealth can be activated.

While I like the pointing people out idea it would need to be broken/deactivated by the target re-hiding or having LOS broken, or have a 1 round duration and longer cooldown than the stealth/hips timer.

[Thief Of Navarre]

What I'm saying is that there are nearly no classes that can actually spot a good rogue... They get to lololol sneak mode and hips in and out of combat at will, unapposed. Spot/listen doesn't cut it unless you have a spell to boost those. Zone of Revelation is the counter.

And yeah I'm taking into account a class with spot/listen as a class skill. That's 25 spot/listen before you add stats in, right? After it might come out around 30, I guess. There are rogues with hides in the 60s.

Rangers nuff said. They even get cheap spells to significantly increase their chances.
I've spotted level 15 rogues (before the softcap was changed) with Peligir before who is a ranger/DS9. I invest lots of points into my class skills funnily enough. If your a cleric dont expect to have 20+ ranks in spot/listen since your already the most overpowered of characters even to grace faerun.

If it gets rid of the only good thing stealthy characters have going for them ZoR should be a lvl30 requisite epic spell. :0

[Dragor]

There's an idea...make ZoR an epic spell so only the few epic lvl clerics can use it instead of 50% of sundren's population

[Mournas]

There's an idea...make ZoR an epic spell so only the few epic lvl clerics can use it instead of 50% of sundren's population

Epic Spells ... would be cool if they exsisted.