Zone of Revelation reveals too much?

[GodBeastX]

Is it even supposed to work on stealth?

[Kaybrie]

Zone of Revelation
Divination
Level: Clr 3, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, DF/M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area: 5-ft.-radius/level emanation
Duration: 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
All creatures and objects within zone of revelation’s area are
made visible. This includes invisible creatures as well as
those in coexistent planes such as the Ethereal Plane and
the Plane of Shadow. Natives of these planes do not lose
any abilities but are made simply made visible.
Zone of revelation suppresses but does not dispel invisibility,
etherealness, or other spells. Once a formerly
invisible object or creature leaves the area, it becomes
invisible again.
Arcane Material Component: A handful of dust from the
grave clothes of an undead creature.

Short answer; No.

[Kaeldorn]

Well it doesn't outright remove them of course, but it's definitely more failsafe and less annoying than Alarm. Even without the sound effect, almost anything that moves will cause it to go off without giving the slightest indication if there was an actual intruder, who it might have been or where they went. It's like videocam security versus tin cans on a string.

[Lothoir]

The blindsight spell, as per Magic of Faerun, is a 3rd level cleric spell and 2nd level wizard and druid spell that should grant the character Blindsight: the ability to accurately pinpoint everything within 30 ft of them with no spot or listen check required.

Since that can not be coded in I think a 5th level cleric spell with an immobile area works is just fine. Especially since, as a 5th level spell, it can not be persisted while Blindsight can.

[BedlamX]

Short answer; No.

Depends on how you read the description.

There is absolutely nothing in that description that excludes stealth/hiding. It simply states that anything in the zone will be revealed. I read the words "all creatures and objects" as being "ALL creatures and objects". Nothing about all except those with so many points in stealth.

[GodBeastX]

It says they become visible. Stealth people aren't invisible or unseeable, they are just obscured from your sight for various physical reasons.

Nothing in there tells me it should work on stealthing people. It seems like it's meant to undo magic hiding.

[DM_Acorn]

Kael brings up a great point the purpose of the spell is to protect meetings and holy places. Shortening the duration seems to defeat the purpose of the spell.

I say leave the spell as it is. I would not be opposed to a longer casting time, or a price tag 25-50gp.

Butcher is quite right about OOC placement of this or other spells/traps, it is certainly meta-gaming and against server rules.

[Kaeldorn]

While it's possible to defend BedlamX's statements, I don't think the spell was originally intended to remove stealth. The reason I don't have anything against it removing people from stealth, as I think was already said, is that the +hide/ms gear out there is so out of whack to a point where spot and listen aren't working counters anymore. And stealth NEEDS a working counter. Zone of Revelation breaking stealth is a small patch on the broken balance.

[Lothoir]

Blindsight: A 2nd/3rd level cleric/druid/wizard spell that allows you to pinpoint all creatures within 30' of you. Spell Resistance offers no protection and you can move freely while retaining the benefits. Can be persisted.

Zone of Revelation: A 5th level cleric spell that reveals all hidden characters. Spell Resistance applies and the zone can not be moved. It can be extended, but not persisted.

Hide in Plain Sight: A supernatural ability.

[Kaybrie]

Depends on how you read the description.

There is absolutely nothing in that description that excludes stealth/hiding. It simply states that anything in the zone will be revealed. I read the words "all creatures and objects" as being "ALL creatures and objects". Nothing about all except those with so many points in stealth.

Obscure loopholes for players to exploit are exactly why 3rd edition is a power-mongers playground in the face of stupid DM's.

The spell says nothing about Hide, extending it to include them just because invisibility and hiding are similar in that they make you undetectable is just trying to exploit wording to better suit a few chosen individuals.

Addendum; the spell also says nothing about the area exploding with pink flowers if a blue dragon enters the radius on a tuesday. I move that if things that aren't noted in spells should be included in spells, that all spells from level 0-9 should automatically give the caster every buff in game, while simultaniously targeting an enemy and self casting every offensive spell. Cause you know, no spell doesn't say that they don't do that.

[Lothoir]

Obscure loopholes for players to exploit are exactly why 3rd edition is a power-mongers playground in the face of stupid DM's.

The spell says nothing about Hide, extending it to include them just because invisibility and hiding are similar in that they make you undetectable is just trying to exploit wording to better suit a few chosen individuals.

Addendum; the spell also says nothing about the area exploding with pink flowers if a blue dragon enters the radius on a tuesday. I move that if things that aren't noted in spells should be included in spells, that all spells from level 0-9 should automatically give the caster every buff in game, while simultaniously targeting an enemy and self casting every offensive spell. Cause you know, no spell doesn't say that they don't do that.

lol running around in full daylight/armed camps/small rooms/right in front of people with no penalties to hide amiright?

Zone of Revelation is an attempt to balance a terribly broken mechanic that can be exploited willy nilly with no repercussions because, hey. They're invisible! No proof no punishment.

[Dragor]

While it's possible to defend BedlamX's statements, I don't think the spell was originally intended to remove stealth. The reason I don't have anything against it removing people from stealth, as I think was already said, is that the +hide/ms gear out there is so out of whack to a point where spot and listen aren't working counters anymore. And stealth NEEDS a working counter. Zone of Revelation breaking stealth is a small patch on the broken balance.

Except that what you're calling countering here amounts to starting with a 10lb wieght on one side of a scale and a 1lb wieght on the other then adding a 20lb wieght to the 1lb wieght to balance it out

of course this spell only effect charachter interactions unless a DM is involved and has no bearing on interactions with the dungeon environments so much ado about nothing

how many players have actually built their chars to max out listen? I can think of 1

[GodBeastX]

My issue with it is there is no counter! You just shift the problem the other direction.

If Hide/ms gear is out of whack that needs changing, not a spell to remove it.

Also I feel that if people want to counter stealth there should be items with spot listen not a spell to just undo the stealth.

Essentially what it does is make it so people don't HAVE to take spot/listen at all, which is lame lame lame. We're also talking rogue-like classes vs casters. Which one is more of a problem these days?

I think it should not remove stealth and we should reevaluate the item inbalance people are showing to exist out there. Or we can make it where people in the zone gain a bonus Spot/Listen. Automatic wins and automatic loses are OP.

[Kaybrie]

lol running around in full daylight/armed camps/small rooms/right in front of people with no penalties to hide amiright?

Zone of Revelation is an attempt to balance a terribly broken mechanic that can be exploited willy nilly with no repercussions because, hey. They're invisible! No proof no punishment.

So the response to a broken, explotable mechanic is to introduce more broken, exploitable mechanics? Instead of, I dunno something reasonable like putting out some more spot/listen gear?

Speaking of broken, stupid mechanics, when was the last time James Arrow lost to a Rogue?

[Gamling]

The main problem is it that the mechanic is stealth is not represented well in the game. One failed hide check, or move silently check that's made every six seconds, and you're exposed. And when you're sneaking by a camp with three people talking in a circle, during a thunder storm, you wonder how this is possible.

And the mechanic is not exploitable in that regard. It is already stated that while hiding it is assumed the person is hiding behind objects not represented in game. It's a shitty system for stealthers who pretty much need hide in plain sight if you want to make an even halfway decent character.