Zone of Revelation reveals too much?

[Lothoir]

You mean the two times he's ever fought one? He won once and the second was a draw. He only won the first time because he managed to make his fort save versus the death attack and there were three Legionaire PC's with him at the time. Had he failed that check he would have been dead and without the backup he would have been in trouble. The rogue wasn't even hiding at that point. He just walked up to James and did a Death Attack, which is what should be done. You don't tip people off by fading completely from sight. You walk up and sucker punch them.

My whole point is that a spell is already available that, by the PnP description, is far more effective than Zone of Revelation as is currently implemented. Something I've pointed out twice that hasn't been addressed by anyone. Strawman for the win?

[Kaeldorn]

Problem lies in the fact that you can get items with bonuses ranging from 2 to 5 or so for various slots and stack them. The item imbalance can't really be fixed without an item wipe, which I don't think is desirable until a number of other issues are dealt with. Or adding items with like +6 spot/listen for multiple slots, which would make both sides of the coin too gear dependent. If you have to fully deck yourself out in stuff that makes improves your spot/listen or hide/move silently to succeed at all, that makes for a pretty lame game of gear minmaxing. If we were to restrict hide bonuses greater than +1 to cloaks and armour, ms bonuses to boots and armour, and restricting spot/listen bonuses to head slot items, it'd be easier to keep bonuses gained from items at a reasonable level.

I agree that people within the zone getting a hefty penalty to their hide/ms rather than outright revealing them is a fair alternative for a quick fix.

My whole point is that a spell is already available that, by the PnP description, is far more effective than Zone of Revelation as is currently implemented. Something I've pointed out twice that hasn't been addressed by anyone. Strawman for the win?

The funny thing is that blindsight in NWN2 doesn't have that effect.

[Gamling]

Yes, but then you have the druids who get 60+ spot and listen, or the bard who has sense-skill buffs. The only strength to a stealther is stealth, and that strength is negated by classes like the cleric, druid, wizard. Pretty much all the casting classes. Taking away hide and move silently gear might balance the items, but all it will do is make more people able to see the rogues. I would suggest that the spot/listen rolls be increased to once every RL minute instead of every 6 seconds, if that is even possible. Don't know.

[Lothoir]

The funny thing is that blindsight in NWN2 doesn't have that effect.

Which is why I consider Zone of Revelation to be a perfectly viable alternative because it is far less effective than its lower level cousins.

[BedlamX]

Obscure loopholes for players to exploit are exactly why 3rd edition is a power-mongers playground in the face of stupid DM's.

The spell says nothing about Hide, extending it to include them just because invisibility and hiding are similar in that they make you undetectable is just trying to exploit wording to better suit a few chosen individuals.

Addendum; the spell also says nothing about the area exploding with pink flowers if a blue dragon enters the radius on a tuesday. I move that if things that aren't noted in spells should be included in spells, that all spells from level 0-9 should automatically give the caster every buff in game, while simultaniously targeting an enemy and self casting every offensive spell. Cause you know, no spell doesn't say that they don't do that.

For one thing...I NEVER use this spell. I am not trying to "exploit wording", as you so trollishly put it. I was simply stating how I read the description. The exact wording is that everything is revealed. I made no ridiculous additions that it would also reveal alignment, class, how many moles a character has on their ass. I simply pointed out what the wording says. As with all things, it is open to debate on the exact meaning because...well...not one of us actually wrote the freakin description.

Obviously, you do not like the spell doing what it does now. Fine. But that assinine addendum you posted trying to make my, personal interpretation of writing seem soooo far-fetched, was just trolling at its finest. Much like the snipe at Lothior later on.

[Gamling]

*Gets the fuck out before this thread gets smashed by DMs*

[GodBeastX]

No need to do item wipe. Can just mod the offending properties on items. It's not hard to look for a skill bonus property and check if it's too high.

[Kaybrie]

At the request of several individuals, I'll simply state that the trolling in my prior post was only in part to do with what you put in that post Bedlam X, and I'll leave it at that.

-

Simply put, Clerics and FS have enough bullshit utility, they can quite frankly do everything better then everyone else, with the exception of stealth. And I find it hillarious, when dominating 9/10 playing fields, the cleric players are the first ones to whine about being shunted out of the 1.

[BedlamX]

Simply put, Clerics and FS have enough bullshit utility, they can quite frankly do everything better then everyone else, with the exception of stealth.

I have no disagreements with you at all on this point. Well...except that divine casters, with the proper spells readied, can even beat most stealthers at stealth, too. Especially if they add in some Shadowbane Stalker levels. An ethereal sneaker is scary in the extreme.

[Dragor]

At the request of several individuals, I'll simply state that the trolling in my prior post was only in part to do with what you put in that post Bedlam X, and I'll leave it at that.

-

Simply put, Clerics and FS have enough bullshit utility, they can quite frankly do everything better then everyone else, with the exception of stealth. And I find it hillarious, when dominating 9/10 playing fields, the cleric players are the first ones to whine about being shunted out of the 1.

If you feel the need to say this group does this, this group does that, back yourself up with examples otherwise you just insult people

I play spellcasters almost exclusivly ATM and your statement would include me in it which is very false

I dont understand the need to be deliberatly offensive on a suggestions forum

[Kaizen]

ZoR is such a tease, and needs to gtfo and be replaced by her hotter, sluttier sister - Dimensional Anchor.

[Kaybrie]

I publicly appologize to most people for being a giant douche, sometimes being an asshole is just the best way to have your voice heard. I felt that this was one of those times.

On a related note, I reserve the right to make generalizations based off my observations, regardless of whether or not individuals feel they're a part of them. If I feel that I need to cite examples, I'll certainly cite them. If I feel that the individuals I'm speaking to are intelligent, insightful people who are certainly capable of looking upon my words and drawing examples for themselves, I won't.

Edit; I also reserve the right to not have saulus take away my rights.

[DM_Acorn]

Okay lets keep the forums constructive.

Easy on the he said she said.

The topic is: ZoR reveals too much.

Proponents of reverting ZoR to it's previous incarnation:
-It should not reveal stealth.
-It should not pull ethereals out.
-It's radius is too big.
-It's duration is too long.
-Cl/FS are already to powerful.

Those in favor of the recent changes:
-ZoR is an appropriate counter to other powerful effects in the game.
-It is not better than lower level PnP spells.
-Don't care never use it.

I think there are plenty of example where a spell, not just ZoR can be misused. In the end it is about communication. If you are a rogue and want to jump a cleric. Follow him around. If he rests out in the open, tell him you would like to jump him while he closes his eyes to pray. You may have to explain to them that resting takes 8 hours and they have to sleep etc... but they should be willing to work with you. If they are not... then the only options left, find a DM to mitigate, ignore them, or wail on the forums and hope someone take pity on your plight.

I for one would like to see folk try to sort out these kind of issues IG, rather than on the forums. There are some great examples of exceptional RP here. It sucks that all we ever here about on the boards is how shitty others are.

We should all be mature enough to talk things over with out "being douchy." Being an "asshole" might be loud but it won't get your point across. All people will here is "Ass ass ass sphincter sphincter sphincter." Then they will retort with their own brand of stink.

[Philosopher]

Another alternative for adjusting this spell:

Characters in the zone take a -20 to hide and move silently. Done.

This means that most stealthers will still have excellent ranks, but typically not so high as to be utterly undetectable.

Despite the gigantic numbers some can achieve, most stealthers actually end up somewhere around 40 by the end, and require spells to get higher. A -20 puts the average to 20's or 30's, which is still high, but manageable to characters with dedicated ranks in listen and spot. It also means clerics and FS's with Zone of Revelation, but no listen or spot skills, can suck it because they didn't spend the ranks on detection skills, as it should be. However, other characters nearby with those skills might reap the reward instead.

[crazyjerren]

My issue with it is there is no counter! You just shift the problem the other direction.

If Hide/ms gear is out of whack that needs changing, not a spell to remove it.

Also I feel that if people want to counter stealth there should be items with spot listen not a spell to just undo the stealth.

Essentially what it does is make it so people don't HAVE to take spot/listen at all, which is lame lame lame. We're also talking rogue-like classes vs casters. Which one is more of a problem these days?

I think it should not remove stealth and we should reevaluate the item inbalance people are showing to exist out there. Or we can make it where people in the zone gain a bonus Spot/Listen. Automatic wins and automatic loses are OP.

^^This^^