Psionics then.

[MKartMaster]

Hehe, I'll chime in here. I'm seeing a lot of "Psion can do this and wizzy/sorcy can't do it" but not a lot of "Wizzy/sorcy can do this and Psion can't." They're different classes, with strengths in different areas. A psion can burn off feats or fighter dip for heavy armor, but the cost really isn't worth it considering he can spend some PP to get his armor up anyways. I don't think the wizard/sorcerer should be presented with the same array of options as the psion anyways.

As far as the penalty for manifesting goes, it's not to hard to rattle of an extensive list of things the sorcerer and wizard can do and the Psion can't. Spell compendium says it all.

Awww, but it's so much fun to compare apples and oranges.

Did you know they're both fruit?

Again, this requires that you have a meatshield. And that you're not facing a dm/another player, who will target you regardless.

Well, if we have a character soloing, they're going to have a hard time at lower levels as mage or a psionic character.

And I suppose meatshiel is a bad term now...a good tank-type character doesn't try to take hits, he tries to keep them from even being attempted. For example, a Knight has good battlefield control, as does a spiked-chain tripper. Both are able to do their job (keep the squishie(s) safe) very well.

[nickbeat]

My point was not so much about the balance of classes, but namely the game mechanics. Psionics avoid major limits that exist for arcane casters:

1. No ASF (one level dip in fighter = Iron Cannon)
2. No visual/audible effects if desired.
3. Free Still and Silent Spell.
4. Take 15 on concentration checks.
5. Free empower sorta, using augmentation.

Any of you people play by post?
I've been in some arenas where the abuses are just staggering.

[Mighty_Draco]

My point was not so much about the balance of classes, but namely the game mechanics. Psionics avoid major limits that exist for arcane casters:

1. No ASF (one level dip in fighter = Iron Cannon)
2. No visual/audible effects if desired.
3. Free Still and Silent Spell.
4. Take 15 on concentration checks.
5. Free empower sorta, using augmentation.

Any of you people play by post?
I've been in some arenas where the abuses are just staggering.

1. Which means they have an option wizards don't
2. Nifty, but not anything to fuss over
3. Still and silent are generally subpar anyways
4. Again, useful, but you don't have to peel apples do you?
5. Not free nor empower.

[CPBailey74]

Any real way you look at it, they are not over balanced. They have strength's and weaknesses just like any other class. You go on other forums and ask, most will say that it is probably not a good idea to go out solo with a Psionic. And just like wizards they can use energy, which against other monsters and such have resistances which in turn can have the same effects. The silent & movement checks should be a given, you are using your mind to use your powers, so only concentration would be needed. Last time I looked, Wizards & Sorcorers had more spells to choose from. They get bonus feats and abilities just like a Psionic would. I still think they should bring back a Psionic as a base class. Only reason I think they have not incorporated it into the game is #1 They would have to create a whole new set of spells/abilities for 1 single class (Druid & Cleric share spells, Wizard & Sorc's share as well) which even then aa Psionic would have some at least similiar to the others, jsut to rename and adjust the properties; #2 It would not have all the "Flashy" effects as the other spell casters as it is mental abilities; #3 Some of the spells would be hard to encorporate into the game I would think.
Otherwise, only real bonus to a Psionic would be ability with armor.

[MKartMaster]

Any real way you look at it, they are not over balanced. They have strength's and weaknesses just like any other class. You go on other forums and ask, most will say that it is probably not a good idea to go out solo with a Psionic. And just like wizards they can use energy, which against other monsters and such have resistances which in turn can have the same effects. The silent & movement checks should be a given, you are using your mind to use your powers, so only concentration would be needed. Last time I looked, Wizards & Sorcorers had more spells to choose from. They get bonus feats and abilities just like a Psionic would. I still think they should bring back a Psionic as a base class. Only reason I think they have not incorporated it into the game is #1 They would have to create a whole new set of spells/abilities for 1 single class (Druid & Cleric share spells, Wizard & Sorc's share as well) which even then aa Psionic would have some at least similiar to the others, jsut to rename and adjust the properties; #2 It would not have all the "Flashy" effects as the other spell casters as it is mental abilities; #3 Some of the spells would be hard to encorporate into the game I would think.
Otherwise, only real bonus to a Psionic would be ability with armor.

Seriously, you deserve an internet cookie.

[Jaeram]

That's a BIG cookie...
Although I think he's right as well, Obsidian probably just saw it as a big chore to put in a class like that and then people would probably just bitch about the way it works later anyways, either you implemented this wrong or this is too powerful etc. It sounds like a cool concept in theory and it would represent a type of power not already present in our current class set, but to tell you the truth, I do not think it would be STRIKINGLY different than warlock. They get to use armor, they can pretty much cast spells all day, not to mention their eldritch blast which honestly sounds like that something bolt or ray that psionics get, except for the fact that they can use it once per round all day long, and while they can't adjust the damage, they can adjust it's shape. I.E. a giant aoe attack, or a very long range single bolt, or maybe a medium damage cone, they can adjust the shape all day if they want too. Not to mention that they get some special constant effects that they can choose (kind of like a natural feat, just takes a spell slot to recieve, like buying a skill with PP) like leaps and bounds which is really cool.

[CPBailey74]

My, that is a mighty large cookie!
I did not even think about the Warlock!! From all that I have head, they seem awefully overpowered, but do not hear much in the way of complaints on them. Well, with a psionic, you have a very limited amount of times you can use your spells (less then a wizard I believe). I am going to post on the Neverwinter Vaults to see if I can get somebody to get a good make on one. I do not know all the details about them (that and I would not have a clue where to start, else I would do it), so I could not get a good make-up of one. Some of the psionic powers I do not really understand is how they deal with the energy (fire, cold, lightning, etc), I do not see that as overly reasonible on how one could create that sort of thing (I will leave that sort of thing to Marvel (ha ha, bring the X-Men into the mix)).

[Jaeram]

I don't know if I would really say Warlock is overpowered, I do think it's a cool class. I guess the part I most like about it was the blast shapes (changing the shape of your special power) because I always thought that if a person was a very skilled practitioner of the arts why couldn't they change the shape of their own spells, they are the one's controlling it and reigning in that power aren't they? So why does that magic missile always look the same, and if there is (a max of 5) of them, why can't they hit more than one enemy? *shrugs* I just thought it was cool and more representative to me as to what a real spell caster should be able to do with their magic.

[Kangleton]

Archmage PRC can control his spells, if I recall correctly.

[MKartMaster]

Psionics would be a bitch to implement.

You need a variable to track how many power points you have.
You need a way to select your powers (did Obsidian implement the ability to add new spell lists?)
You need a variable to track psionic focus

Those are the easy ones

You need a way to quickly select how many PP you use for augmentation, and how many of them are split for what use on the power
Same for Metapsionic feats
You need a way to quickly select the element type of some powers, as well
ALL decisions about what power will be manifested (and its accompanying augmentations) need to be made in the space of about 1-2 seconds, so they can manifest without having to spend a round selecting a power, then manifesting it.



IIRC, the Player Resource Compendium haks added Psions to the classes available, but despite doing a wonderful job with plenty of other non-included classes, the psion was just difficult to work with. They even reduced his augmentation capabilities, but because of the way they had to do things (menus, sometimes 7-8 layers deep), it was just a pain to manifest sometimes.

So, if someone does manage a good implementation of psionics, hats off to them.

[CPBailey74]

Maybe it is just me, but do they not have to figure all that other stuff in when building other classes anyway? Such as mages, clerics and such? I am sure that it can be done, whether somebody actually wants to take the time is another story and am sure that the process would vary a bit, but it is a different character just like all the others that were/are created. I would think that figuring the rolling and such would not differ all that much when creating most any other classes. What about the feats you intertwine into a character, that is about the same sort of process is it not?

[Kangleton]

Yes, and no.

Psions are a little more complicated than the others because there are more variables to their "casting". Mages, when "augmenting" their spells, have a set amount of options, with set results. Empower, Maximize, Extend... they have predictable, easily calculated results, whereas the Psion can augment in a profound number of ways. Since any additional Powerpoint they spend can cause a different effect, and they can choose the element of the power they use, and they can then also apply a feat to that power, which can also be shaped in a certain way... that is a lot of variables, and hundreds of possible outcomes that must be scripted and able to be calculated on the spot.

Its tough, I'm sure.

[CPBailey74]

Yeah, Did not figure all that stuff. Like I probably said a gazillion times I haven't the slightest clue how to do scripting on here. Only thing I ever did any scripting for was for Ultima Online, and even that stuff was not overly complicated. I usually just made up different weapons and altered files that others made. I am sure if they actually took the time to implement it, that afterwards would not be overly complex. THey ahve Mind Flayers in here, how do they have them set up? They are pretty much a psionic based creature, wouldn't that have at least some of the basics for it?

[Kangleton]

Nah, the mindflayers and stuff like that cheat, and were just given spells and a few other mind-effecting abilities to "simulate" the effect of a Psion... but it isn't true to the actual concept. Would be cool though. Might make the Illithid race (Mindflayers) much cooler.

[CPBailey74]

Bah, figures. Oh well, it sounded like a good thing to go off of. Since they have Drow, the Illithid would be another race that could be played maybe. Would be somewhat interesting (to say the least) in trying to incorp them into things, but hey they have other evil races coming into the mix now. In all honesty, I think it would be cool to be able to play as (almost) any race (orc, goblin, troll, etc). That would certainly give a bit of divirsity to the game world! Imagine going into a game and having the choice to play as an Orc and being able to ambush, having tribes and such (would not be that much of a differance then town for the most part) and having actual plays to compete against throughout the whole world and such (sort of like the other MMORPG's, just a LOT more vast and in depth). But that is another subject all together. I still think if they just sat down and did it once, they could use the basis for further development. They really did not have to change all that much from NWN1 to NWN2, just better details and some other enhancements.