Psionics then.

[nickbeat]

I'm not talking about spell slots. I am talking about spells known. The level 6 sorcerer actually doesn't have a ton of spell slots to learn, so every one counts.

[MKartMaster]

@ Sammael: Heh, sorry, that came off more condescending than I expected. I'm so used to the CharOp boards that I get stuck thinking in theoretical power instead of probable power, and assuming people will understand me. The idea is to use a win-button then either run, or have your friend with his beating stick smack them into oblivion. As to blasting being inferior, look at it this way. A sorcerer can hit them with a handful of d6s for some damage; the fighter-type can hit them with a couple dice and (hopefully) some nice PA damage and/or damage from STR. They can both deal damage, so why double up on offensive strategies? The fighter almost certainly can't force a will save vs daze, or make the enemy blinded with a save, or start draining the opponent's intelligence score, so that's where the sorcerer (or rather, the wizard, since the only advantage sorcs have is spontaneous casting, but that's another thread entirely) should be focusing his spells on. HOWEVER, that's not to say blasting isn't fun or a decent backup strategy, it's just better to focus on other strategies first.

Sure, but psion get those to free.

Also, power points make psion far more flexible. Only need 2d6 damage to finish off that ogre? Sorc has to blow a whole spell, all or nothing.

If you're facing an ogre, you're probably level 3, since it's CR 3. Assuming casting/manifesting stats of 18, sorc has 5 L0 and 3 L1 known, and 6 of each level per day; the psion has 17 PP per day.

The psion almost certainly needs to spend 3 PP to get 2d6 damage (I can't find a L1 power that does 2d6 without augmentation), so he uses up 3/17 = just under 1/5 his daily power reserve (.176blahblahblah). The sorcerer's best bet is to use Magic Missile, since it comes out to 3d4+3, average 10.5 dmg (compare to 2d6's avg 7). The sorcerer just used 1/12 of his daily spell allowance, close to 1/2 the usage of the psion.

Also, the psion only knows 7 powers, so this is 1/7 of his current powers known allowance (and cannot be changed), while the sorc used 1/3 his L1 allowance (1/8 overall) (the spell can be changed, if he really needs to).

It seems to me that the psion is gaining his moment-to-moment adaptability in exchange for long-term adaptability.

At level 20, the sorc can know 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3, while the psion will know (assuming he always takes the highest level power available) 5/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/6. I don't know what to make of these numbers, I just decided to put them out there. Those are from lowest to highest, left to right, by the way.

[Sammael]

@ Sammael: Heh, sorry, that came off more condescending than I expected. I'm so used to the CharOp boards that I get stuck thinking in theoretical power instead of probable power, and assuming people will understand me. The idea is to use a win-button then either run, or have your friend with his beating stick smack them into oblivion. As to blasting being inferior, look at it this way. A sorcerer can hit them with a handful of d6s for some damage; the fighter-type can hit them with a couple dice and (hopefully) some nice PA damage and/or damage from STR. They can both deal damage, so why double up on offensive strategies? The fighter almost certainly can't force a will save vs daze, or make the enemy blinded with a save, or start draining the opponent's intelligence score, so that's where the sorcerer (or rather, the wizard, since the only advantage sorcs have is spontaneous casting, but that's another thread entirely) should be focusing his spells on. HOWEVER, that's not to say blasting isn't fun or a decent backup strategy, it's just better to focus on other strategies first.

If you say so. To me, playing second fiddle to the fighter or whatever sounds dull. Especially in the case of sorcerers, I've always envisaged mages as being people capable of levelling cities at a whim (at higher levels, anyway). Think Rand al'Thor from the Wheel of Time series. Besides, why mess around with blinding people or whatever when you can just drop a few firebrands on their heads? That'll speed up their destruction immeasurably.

Also, if a mage takes the path you describe, it won't be able to solo for jack, unless it wastes feats on combat skills. Which, to me, would make it just a glorified fighter.

By the way, when you were talking about avoiding grapple checks before; can I presume you meant via a spell mantle?

[MKartMaster]

When I was talking about avoiding grapples, I meant it literally. Avoid them. Stay back, let the meatshield stay up close to the nasty. Hopefully you don't have all spells that need to be really close to the enemy to work.

Fight smarter, not harder!

[nickbeat]

2d6+2 damage costs 2 PP, not 3, presuming energy ray (fire).

[MKartMaster]

2d6+2 damage costs 2 PP, not 3, presuming energy ray (fire).

Right you are. However, both are subject to SR/PR, and the Psion has to make a touch attack and has a shorter range (not that it really matters; 25 + 5/level is plenty).

Taking the change in cost into account, the sorc winds up using 3/4 the output of the psion then with an 18 stat.

(1/12)/(2/15) = 5/8 output with a 16

(1/12)/(2/14) = 5.25/9 = 7/12 output with a 15 (minimum for level 9 powers/spells)

The sorcerer is still using less of his output for the day. Yes, I realize this cannot be a perfect correlation because I'm including cantrips, which psions don't have an equivalent of. I think it makes a better comparison, however, than just 1st level powers.

[CPBailey74]

Okay, read up on that page on Psionics and all that. Yes, they are very powerful, but also have a lot of limitations. 1 Vs 1 against most classes, they would probably win hands down, but then would be almost useless afterwards from power expendature. If you have 2 on 1, then you are probably toasted.

[MKartMaster]

Okay, read up on that page on Psionics and all that. Yes, they are very powerful, but also have a lot of limitations. 1 Vs 1 against most classes, they would probably win hands down, but then would be almost useless afterwards from power expendature. If you have 2 on 1, then you are probably toasted.

+1

I hope you didn't read the entire thread? You've got it nailed: psionic characters can nova (spend all/lots of their power at once) to gain a large upper hand, but then they're just as crippled as a spellcaster without spells, more or less. Personally, I find this to be a fun upside to the class, since it means I have to be careful about power expenditure, but they system doesn't punish mismanagement as much as magic, since you can (usually) manage just a lower-level version of the power you need.

[nickbeat]

Yeah, the psion is a monster in PVP, but less ridiculous in group play. He is only one example. I have seen an Elan Ardent become an insanely mighty tank through a few simple feats.

Granted, you can munchkin pretty much anything, but my main beef is more with the mechanics of manifestation being far less limiting that arcane. That Psion is welcome to wear full plate with no limits to his power, and he can do this without moving or even making a sound.

Scooby: "Raggy, Revil Right in Rarmor!
Shaggy: "Don't worry Scoob, that's just an old rusty suit."
Psion: Manifest Control body on Scooby who proceeds to tear Shaggy apart.

Velma arrives, gets eaten by Scooby. The power wears off and Scooby is mortified at what he has done.

[MKartMaster]

Psions can wear armor with almost no penalty.

Nonproficient with Armor Worn

A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he or she is not proficient takes the armor?s (and/or shield?s) armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all Strength-based and Dexterity-based ability and skill checks. The penalty for nonproficiency with armor stacks with the penalty for nonproficiency with shields.

[nickbeat]

They can still take a feat to allow them to use armor with no ASF.

[MKartMaster]

They can still take a feat to allow them to use light armor with no ASF.

Fix'd

It takes 2 and 3 feats to get medium and heavy armor without penalty, respectively.

[CPBailey74]

All in all, from what I had said before, they are no so unbalanced. They can hold a slight edge on PvP, but that is about it. Otherwise, they are about as equal to a mage. In a way, a mage/sorc has an advantage with more spells. So where a Psionic would blast a creature with a barrage as a mage could, a mage would have more left over in the end without resting. A Cleric, Druid or Monk would probably tear a Psionic up without too much trouble since they should have good will saves for mental attacks, would just be the blasting that would/could do some harm. A Monk still would tear them up for the most part.

[Mighty_Draco]

Hehe, I'll chime in here. I'm seeing a lot of "Psion can do this and wizzy/sorcy can't do it" but not a lot of "Wizzy/sorcy can do this and Psion can't." They're different classes, with strengths in different areas. A psion can burn off feats or fighter dip for heavy armor, but the cost really isn't worth it considering he can spend some PP to get his armor up anyways. I don't think the wizard/sorcerer should be presented with the same array of options as the psion anyways.

As far as the penalty for manifesting goes, it's not to hard to rattle of an extensive list of things the sorcerer and wizard can do and the Psion can't. Spell compendium says it all.

[Sammael]

When I was talking about avoiding grapples, I meant it literally. Avoid them. Stay back, let the meatshield stay up close to the nasty. Hopefully you don't have all spells that need to be really close to the enemy to work.

Fight smarter, not harder!

Again, this requires that you have a meatshield. And that you're not facing a dm/another player, who will target you regardless.