Psionics then.

[Jaeram]

I've read and some what understand what psionics are all about, but never fully understood why so many DM's or players hate them, they seemed kinda cool to me. So here, I made this thread, tell me what you think about them nickbeat (and anyone else altough please refrain from arguing about them )

Also since this is an off-topic thread, I like your avatar (nickbeat) we need more anime avatars .

[MKartMaster]

*finds Nickbeat's post* Ooh, this ought to be good. I have a great link. Read, please.
[Edit]: Not to be confrontational/argumentative. It's just good reading in a situation like this. In fact, while you (or anyone else) is on the Wizards boards, look up the Stormwind Fallacy if you haven't seen it already. Also good general reading.

First rule of Psionics: You MAY NOT spend more PP on a power than your manifester level for said power. As such, a a level 1 psion cannot spend 20 pp (if he somehow had that many) to do 20d4 damage 1/day (and then suck for the rest of it).

Continuing elsewhere:

Psionics in 1e and 2e sucked (or so I hear). In 3e, they also sucked (or so I hear). In 3.5e, they are awesome (so I say), like Tome of Battle. However, also like ToB, they have an acclimation period, which usually begins with a kneejerk reaction like "OMGBORKENZORS HE HAS LIEK 5 POWERS/DAY AT LEVEL 1 OMG OH NOES". Er-hem. However, by having a DM who knows how to use the system and employs Magic-Psionics transparency, psionics becomes a great addition to a party.

Also note that, like ToB (any yes, most every other splatbook by WotC), the XPH increases the power level of options available to players. I challenge you to find a splatbook that is very well balanced in terms of power when compared to Core (PHB, MM1, DMG).

[nickbeat]

OK, here is my beef. I've played in a number of arenas and found that when comparing a psion to a sorcerer, the psion has advantages that a sorcerer does not.

Psion gets grappled: Expend psionic focus to take 15 on concentration check. WIN

Sorc gets grappled: Good luck on that roll.

Psion gets Pinned: No problem, I can still manifest as it is purely mental.

Sorc gets pinned: Make a grapple check to escape twice in a row or you are SOL.

Psion is invisible and manifests a power: No sound at all. Hide in a corner and buff away!

Sorc is invisible: Most spells are verbal, so the enemy can make a listen check and close in on him.

Psion Energy Ray/burst, etc : Choose whatever custom effect you like; sonic, fire, electricity, cold

Sorc: Hope you have the right elemental choice learned, or you are SOL against that fire elemental.

Really, it comes down to versatility. Psionics are way cool, but truly unfair in comparison to standard arcane classes. I honestly don't mind say the Psychic Warrior because it is pretty nerfy really and no better than a cleric, but psion be crazy.

[nickbeat]

Jaeram: Thanks. I actually came up with that avatar while searching for a Black Flame Zealot image. I think that avatar fits the bill nicely.

[MKartMaster]

I will take your points one by one, if you don't mind? Most sarcasm directed at characters, not you.

Psion gets grappled: Expend psionic focus to take 15 on concentration check. WIN

Okay, and next turn? Granted, you could have used it to DD your way out of the grapple, but what are you doing in grapple in the first place? Don't you have meatshields for that? Also note, by RAW (Rules as Written) you couldn't take 15 on that check, since expending it in that manner is like taking 10, which you can't do when being threatened or distracted. Weird and nonsensical for sure, but true. I concede this point, taking the time to point out my first point and also that after level 5, your ranks make this autosuccess, because it's neat.

Sorc gets grappled: Good luck on that roll.

Again, why is your sorc grappled? He shouldn't be. He should also have a stilled DD ready (once he can, which is level 9. Little far off, but possible) or a stilled/silenced one if he's paranoid about being pinned before he can cast. Also, the sorc's ranks reach the point where he has a guaranteed 50/50 to cast by ranks alone once he hits level 14. I suppose psionic chars have it better in grappling anyways.

Psion gets Pinned: No problem, I can still manifest as it is purely mental.

See above.

Sorc gets pinned: Make a grapple check to escape twice in a row or you are SOL.

Dimension Door. Or better yet, DON'T GET IN GRAPPLE. You should not be in grapple, little sorc! See above. Again, it looks like psionic characters just have it better in grapples.

Psion is invisible and manifests a power: No sound at all. Hide in a corner and buff away!

Great. Just don't forget your Displays.

Sorc is invisible: Most spells are verbal, so the enemy can make a listen check and close in on him.

And you aren't moving why? You have a move action for a reason, you know. Hint: You can use it to move. Or even just 5-ft steps to keep them guessing (1/8 chance of them picking the right square, fyi).

Psion Energy Ray/burst, etc : Choose whatever custom effect you like; sonic, fire, electricity, cold

Yep. Psions rock at blasting. Know what's hard to do with a Psion, oddly enough? Lots of telekinetic/telepathic/etc stuff. This is my only gripe with Psionics in 3.5; they're too much about crystals and pyro/cryo/electro(?)/audo(?)/aceto(?)kinesis and not enough about "Your mind is mine! NOM NOM NOM."

Sorc: Hope you have the right elemental choice learned, or you are SOL against that fire elemental.

Better idea. Cast grease/sleep/glitterdust/other "win-button" spells instead of blasting. Go to the CharOp boards at the Wizards forums and ask for help with a "blasting mage" build. I guarantee they will tell you blasting is NOT the way to go with a mage, because it is inferior to the other awesome shit you can do.

Really, it comes down to versatility. Psionics are way cool, but truly unfair in comparison to standard arcane classes. I honestly don't mind say the Psychic Warrior because it is pretty nerfy really and no better than a cleric, but psion be crazy.

**reads bit about PsyWars and Clerics**
I'll just chuckle to myself about this one. Seriously, clerics = gods. CoDzilla, as he's called on the Wizards forums. Note that this is technically theoretical power; any same DM who saw a cleric throwing around Extra Turning, Nightsticks, and DMM: Persist would slap them upside the head before they threw their first die. Also, PsyWars are good, but not broken. I'm playing a somewhat optimized PsyWar spiked-chain build in my PnP game right now, and he contributes just as much as, or possibly more than, any other melee member in the party during battle, including the ridiculously twinked/cheated half-golem melee monster.

[MKartMaster]

Found what I was looking for. This thread probably has a lot of points that were/can be/will be brought up about psionics, balance and otherwise.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74452

[nickbeat]

The sorc still needs to get still spell and silent spell in order to match psion. Energy attack was just a simple example. Psion can get mad TK man. See telekinetic thrust or control body!

[Kangleton]

Much like Sorcerers, Psions need feats as well.

[nickbeat]

Sure, but psion get those to free.

Also, power points make psion far more flexible. Only need 2d6 damage to finish off that ogre? Sorc has to blow a whole spell, all or nothing.

[Sammael]

Better idea. Cast grease/sleep/glitterdust/other "win-button" spells instead of blasting. Go to the CharOp boards at the Wizards forums and ask for help with a "blasting mage" build. I guarantee they will tell you blasting is NOT the way to go with a mage, because it is inferior to the other awesome shit you can do.

Is the idea here that you use one of these 'win-button' spells and then blast the enemy? Or should you use one of them an trundle around hitting them to death?

Either way, I think it's a bit sad that players who want to play blasting mages can't do so because they're 'inferior'. How about making damage-dealing spells work better for mages before implementing a whole new class.

[Kangleton]

Sure, but psion get those to free.

Also, power points make psion far more flexible. Only need 2d6 damage to finish off that ogre? Sorc has to blow a whole spell, all or nothing.

What feats are these, that the Psion gets for free? Bonus feats, you mean? Wizards get bonus feats.

And that 2d6 to finish off an ogre... thats a pretty obvious one. Sorcerers still have their low-level spell slots. Burning Hands? Magic Missile? Scorching Ray? Melf's Acid Arrow? Sorcerers don't prepair spells, so even if he had intended on using those slots for something else, he still has that equally flexible option that the Psion has, by using a lower leveled spell rather than some "all or nothing" scenario, as you suggested.

[nickbeat]

Right, but that means a level 6 Sorc has to memorize 3 times as many spells, while a level 5 Psion only needs to learn one.

The Psion essentially gets the still spell equivalent for free free, and and silent spell with a moderate concentration check.

[Kangleton]

Wait... how does the Sorcerer need to memorize 3 times as many spells?

[nickbeat]

Say you want to have 3 spells that do 1d6, 3d6, and 5d6 damage. You have to learn three then.

The Psion learns Energy Ray and he gets 1-5d6 however he pleases.

Granted, you get a similar effect with reserve feats but still need an extra feat to get that coolness.

[Kangleton]

What kind of Sorcerer doesn't learn Magic Missile anyways? It's not as though the class is being inconvenienced by having to learn low-level damage spells. Why wouldn't you have a few?

Psions just have a different method of attaining the same thing. Rather than burning a higher level spell slot to do 5d6, they burn more Power Points. And rather than burning less Power Points, a Sorcerer burns a lower level spell slot when he uses Magic Missile to finish off a dying Ogre.

I fail to see the big deal.