PvP - What punishment should exist?

[MalcolmSonoftheDevil]

I'll vote for a time and gp loss, doesn't seem fair to loose xp (that is unless the killer gains xp for the kill) but what do I know I'm just an old man with a stick.

[Ithildur]

We'd have greedy people goading others into PVP just to loot. :|

No, if that's the case then the problem wouldn't be the death system, the problem would be there are players who are more MMORPGers than RPers. Get rid of such players and have a system that's RP oriented. Too light a death is not conducive to good RP.

I intentionally killed off my lvl 17 PC on the Frontier more or less permanently, having him choose to not come back even though the option of a rez or respawn was available. A big part of the reason, I got tired of the ridiculousness of dancing around the constant respawn which completely shatters immersion and RP, and as well, the death being final led to some strong emotions and good RP for myself and other people - a far more greater satisfaction than simply respawning and getting yet another level that's really meaningless because my PC is virtually immortal.

The death really mattered for once, and affected many PCs on the server. That's the goal of RP oriented playing; leave a mark, tell a moving or otherwise good story, affect the world in ways that really matter and might be memorable - not just keep respawning and getting more loot and xp and levels.

Regardless of what the rules for this server end up being, I have decided that after my PC dies a certain number of times, I'm not going to respawn him unless a real IC rez is possible. I'm not sure at this point how many, proabably 4 or 5 respawns is more than enough miraculous divine interventions - I've already had one. I've seen a server that has a script that rolls a 1d100 everytime you die, that there's a 10% chance that the death is permanent unless a rez is performed; I don't like other content on that server and don't plan on playing there, but at least that part makes things more interesting and death meaningful/scary/dramatic. Maybe I'll just do this, roll a 1d100 and if I roll bad, he's gone.

It also makes you play and fight more realisticly and smarter, not rush into dangerous situations with no plan and no clue. With that, my vote is for xp and gold loss WITH heavy temporary penalties that prevent immediate return to combat for some time for any and all deaths, unless DM oversees and overrides an exception or a rez is possible.

[Dark presence]

I'm never fond of PVP in RPGs. Its generally one sided depending on levels and classes involved, and especially so in a real time environment. I do understand and agree with the idea that it should exist of course. There is plenty of reason to have it in this game.
However, based on the potential for griefing and generally frustrating a player, I think it should be left where it is, no penalties, and no timer. Its not fun to stare at a screen for 1-10 minutes. Try it and see how fun it is. Remember HCR bleeding scripts in NWN 1 where you stabilized and had to wait literally an hour before your character might get up or might finish dying? If it were 30 minutes, I would just leave and play some other game, which totally defeats the purpose of coming here to play the game.

My own character would get killed very fast and very easily in a PVP situation, and I doubt that would change till around level 20. Of course the character tries to avoid such situations, but I don't really want to be punished as a player, given a "time out" for 10 minutes just because my character is weak, and no one was fast enough to save me, assuming I had friends around to assist. The fact is, that right now, if someone just went and charged my character, I would die fast, probably before I could even react and run. So I'm not keen on having to wait before I can play again just for that.
Yes of course the timer would be there to imply some sort of penalty for death, but I would rather leave that up to the RP of the character rather than just punish the player.

[GodBeastX]

I'm never fond of PVP in RPGs. Its generally one sided depending on levels and classes involved, and especially so in a real time environment. I do understand and agree with the idea that it should exist of course. There is plenty of reason to have it in this game.
However, based on the potential for griefing and generally frustrating a player, I think it should be left where it is, no penalties, and no timer. Its not fun to stare at a screen for 1-10 minutes. Try it and see how fun it is. Remember HCR bleeding scripts in NWN 1 where you stabilized and had to wait literally an hour before your character might get up or might finish dying? If it were 30 minutes, I would just leave and play some other game, which totally defeats the purpose of coming here to play the game.

My own character would get killed very fast and very easily in a PVP situation, and I doubt that would change till around level 20. Of course the character tries to avoid such situations, but I don't really want to be punished as a player, given a "time out" for 10 minutes just because my character is weak, and no one was fast enough to save me, assuming I had friends around to assist. The fact is, that right now, if someone just went and charged my character, I would die fast, probably before I could even react and run. So I'm not keen on having to wait before I can play again just for that.
Yes of course the timer would be there to imply some sort of penalty for death, but I would rather leave that up to the RP of the character rather than just punish the player.

If a timer is implemented, you can still be raised before the timer is up by clerics or someone who purchased a scroll. The timer is for respawn, and you'd have to wait to be able to click the death menu.Technically if there is RP reason for the PVP, you likely won't be just staring at an empty screen, you'd be seeing RP unfold in front of you.

The problem right now is people die, and poof, gone. Which is why I laid out this option. Nobody waits around after death anywhere. I even see people respawn in DM events. Two of my biggest issues is when people just rest in DM events or treat death/near death like nothing. I mean even make a no respawn/no rest wand I can wave at some people simply because of how shallow their viewpoints on these situations are.

[Ithildur]

I think that's actually a very viable idea, GBX, the no rest/respawn wand... it certainly is helpful for me if at certain points when the DM rules 'you cannot rest here' that is communicated clearly to me as a player, especially for caster PCs who rely on buffs, etc.

As far as respawning during a DM event, that's basicly ignoring the presence of the DM, whether intentional or not. If someone does that that indicates either they are completely unfamiliar with interacting with RP server DMs, or they're saying 'screw you, I'm on my own'.

[GodBeastX]

I think that's actually a very viable idea, GBX, the no rest/respawn wand... it certainly is helpful for me if at certain points when the DM rules 'you cannot rest here' that is communicated clearly to me as a player, especially for caster PCs who rely on buffs, etc.

As far as respawning during a DM event, that's basicly ignoring the presence of the DM, whether intentional or not. If someone does that that indicates either they are completely unfamiliar with interacting with RP server DMs, or they're saying 'screw you, I'm on my own'.

Resting is hours of time passing by. If your talking to an NPC, then you just rest because you're not at 100% HP, don't you think that's kind of wierd?

I had one of my NPC clerics run up to a guy and go "You're wounded! PLease allow me to assist you!" and he replies "Just a scratch" *Rest* "All better now". Which I in turn replied with the emote *Looks at <character> with concern, despite the fact he just did hours of resting in 4 seconds* I think he got the idea since he allowed me to heal him, even though he had 100% hp.

[Ithildur]

Heh, we're getting off topic, but..the problem is it's an abstract that NWN2 default rules have chosen to take to an extreme for the sake of catering to the action crowd playing the OC.

As a result we get the 'insta-rest, all done, all healed, spells/abilities restored in seconds' by default; I don't like it either, which is why I enjoyed the resting component of some hardcore servers in NWN1. However this server isn't hardcore in terms of a lot of different aspects (such as death), from what I've been told; so it's sometimes confusing, trying to figure out what is appropriate.

I've never once seen anyone RP resting as anything more than the default insta rest on this server, aside from maybe a few occasions where we try to RP "this seems like a good spot to rest for a bit" and hit the rest key, guard each other, and linger for a bit - that's still not hours of resting obviously, and in a pinch, if someone gets hurt badly 99% of the time they're just going to rest right then and there under the current rules settings, regardless of how recently they rested. So it's not very realistic or close to PnP at all currently if people plop down at the drop of a hat; RPing around it is ambiguous because the setting is exactly the same as the OC; at least in the BG series it was very clear that the 10 seconds of resting screen represented resting (or attempting to) for 8 hours and there were wandering monsters interrupting rest. Much better system than NWN.

I think I hear what you're saying, in effect, 'try to RP what you'd imagine is realistic; even though you can respawn and run back into combat, don't, and RP appropriately. Even though you can rest anytime virtually anywhere, don't, and RP accordingly'. Ideally this would solve the problem but... unless your playerbase is around 20 people who are really dedicated to RP to an equal extent and all hold to those standards strictly, it's not going to happen, especially when DMs aren't around, and when there are people joining who are basicly coming straight from the OC or MMORPGs. And even for dedicated RPers, there are times when it's ambiguous what is appropriate as far as resting or attempting to rest in a dangerous area.

Also, talking to an NPC during an event can take 10 times as long as it would in real time or PnP time. By the time you get finished typing out the standard "Your evil deeds will end here villain! " "You fools, no one can stop me now, and I shall tell you why" "Very well, boast away and give away all your vital secrets, we will listen so we know how to kill you" "Fools, it does not matter now, but I will tell you nontheless" (being tongue in cheek here :P ) etc etc all the buffs are gone by the time combat starts. I would see this as an OOC factor and allow PCs to rebuff with only the longer lasting spells that they originally had on before the dialog, simply because typing takes so much time that a 5 minute conversation takes 30 minutes, something that would not have happened IC. If they were hurt significantly before the dialog, then I believe the DM client or a wand can damage them to bring them to the amount of HP they had before the rest.

I've seen this so often during DM quests that it's become rather funny to watch; the buffs end during the dialog and inevitably, buff dependent PCs end up doing far more poorly in the ensuing combat or getting killed simply because people can't type that fast.

[Pulseczar]

How is rest usually handled in PnP? Usually the PCs say to the DM "ok, we're going to rest now, the humans are first, the elves will do their meditation after a couple hours, and we'll all wake up at the same time."
But has the DM ever responded, "Ok guys, so it takes 8 hours for you all to rest, I'll see you tomorrow...." Not in my groups. For us, we say "it's resting time, we take the necessary precautions and rest in such a way that we all wake up at the same time" Dm says, done, it's now 8 hours later, let's move on.

The point being, rest in PnP is usually instant. Much like traveling over long distances. Now compare to NWN. Resting takes 5 seconds, and travel between Port Mirakus and Aquor takes as much time as is required for your computer to load the area. Do people take into account the fact that by using the map, you are essentially taking out IG DAYS worth of travel?
If I did my calculations correctly, one IG hour is five RL minutes. So for a human to rest his required 8 hours, that would take 40 RL minutes. I for one, don't want to push the rest button and wait for 40 RL minutes before I can do anything again.

So basically, not everything translates perfetly to a game. We have scaled time where 1 IG hour is 5 RL minutes. So when you have your 30 min RL conversation, it actually took 6 IG hours.... And durring that time, one group of PCs devastated mossclaw meet and came back to town. So, their adventure, which would have taken days, now took the same time as a 30 min conversation.

In PnP, we cut out the fat. There's usually no consideration for people going to the bathroom, travel times are cut down to seconds with the possibility of a random encounter, and resting is done in the blink of an eye to keep boredom to a minimum, and use time to the maximum efficiency. NWN 2 has replicated those aspects. Battle is semi-real time, resting takes 5 seconds, and travel is almost instantaneous. If there are to be time considerations, I think that can be at the DM discretion. You tell the DM when you want to rest or travel long distances, and he or she will decide if that has any effect on the quest. So, if you're chasing someone, and you decide now is a good time to rest, well, you just lost the chase unless you have a really good ranger that can track.

[Ithildur]

No one in their right mind is recommending that you sit for 8 hours in order to RP out resting, or even 8 hours of ingame time. That would be a literal implementation tht would work with a one party server (where you can have the DM or a script fast forward the time ala BG) but not a PW.

You're forgetting as well, that rest in PnP is not that simple. You can't just plop down anywhere and tell the DM, 'ok we rest for 8 hours'. There are places where camping is impossible, or even if possible deadly or at least dangerous. Things like rest, travel, are handled by a DM for one party usually. That's not the case on a PW where people are running around and doing things potentially nilly willy, which is why there are server rules and guidelines as well as scripts that deal with various things like resting.

We all agree that we're obviously dealing with CRPG adaptations of things that are abstractions to begin with. What we're trying to go for is how to have rulesets and guidelines or even simply expectations of how to best simulate these things in a way that is fun, balanced, as well as challenging. Sometimes what is fun, especially for people who've played PnP or on hardcore RP style servers, are things that people who are only familiar with the OC view as 'waste of time' and slow down their fast paced gaming. I think that's where GBX is coming from where he expects people to RP resting more reasonably.

[Dark presence]

If a timer is implemented, you can still be raised before the timer is up by clerics or someone who purchased a scroll. The timer is for respawn, and you'd have to wait to be able to click the death menu.Technically if there is RP reason for the PVP, you likely won't be just staring at an empty screen, you'd be seeing RP unfold in front of you.

Well I certainly haven't made enough cash to afford a scroll post wipe, and I don't think any clerics are level 9 yet (and of course they would also have to be friendly enough to your character to raise them).
Of course I agree that you shouldn't just respawn if theres the potential for RP and possible raising going on (and especially no respawning during events, but that really is another subject entirely) but, the thing is there won't always be that possibility. All the RP may have been done before hand and afterwards, there might be nothing to do, barring third parties starting an argument or something. So the victor(s) go have a drink or continue on their way and the loser(s) lay there for X minutes? Theres not much to say to a corpse for 10 minutes.

And I have to fully agree with what is said about resting and buffs disappearing in the middle of a long RP conversation with fighting afterwards. I saw this all the time in NWN 1 and it is very very frustrating as a caster and buffer class, because I never once saw any DM take it into consideration.

[Ithildur]

10 minutes isn't a very long time to chill out and remain inactive, considering that your PC just ... died. Go grab a drink, use the bathroom. Take a break... try it; you'll like it.

[GodBeastX]

Note I said 1 to 10 minutes.

Not to mention, someone else may have RP that involves finding your dead carcass which might help to RP out the actual respawn click. Or a DM might have a nice little event planned for you because you're dead where he finds your carcass. Some of my favorite RP has started because DMs found me dead somewhere. I remember one of my characters being drawn into a shadow hell by the thing that killed it which spawned into all sorts of stories. Of course, we can't do that because as soon as people fall out they click respawn and don't even bother to explain how they got back to their party

"Lalala, I'm back, what'd I miss?"

As for resting, this is why I have been extremely reluctant to impose any sort of rest restrictions. What may happen, however, is that rest becomes limitted to certain "Safe" areas in dungeons. Rest as much as you want in that area (To prep spells, etc) It also helps RP I believe, because if they enter that area they know to do their whole thing "I'll keep watch, you go ahead and bandage those wounds, or pray to your god, or meditate on enlightenment."

I've played a wizard, I sometimes had to rest 4 times before I got my spellbook right with the character. "Woops! One sec, I missed level 3 spells". Something my character wouldn't make as a mistake, but I would. In P&P you can negotiate with DMs to allow things, but in PW, I can't just make a catch all rule for resting that fits perfectly every situation.

[Tratz]

Permanent death. It would really set in stone the consequences for your actions should you provoke/kill another player. It would deter griefers from griefing because being retaliated on by the deceased's friends/neighbors/townguards would cost them everything they've gained.


Perhaps a trial in the Fugue Plane would be the only key to return to Sundren?

Just some thoughts for some really tough love

[Ithildur]

Yeah, as much as I'd actually enjoy and support so called 'perma death' (it's really a misnomer; most people mean 'death without respawn' - there's many ways to bring back the fallen in such cases) I doubt it will be implemented in Sundren as it's not that kind of a server.

One thing I'll add as well to address the people who seem to be so worried about getting griefed and dying with heavier penalties; this is not the kind of server where that will be tolerated. You have to have more faith in the staff/DMs and also believe that the playerbase eventually will be weeded out (this means btw you yourself are committed to high standards and will not tolerate it if you see someone griefing another player whether the player is yourself or someone else. Take screenshots and report their ass).

If fear of griefers is the main factor that is behind not implementing harsher death from PVP something is wrong; you're assuming/implying that Sundren's RP environment is low quality. Perhaps at this stage with open admission you do get problem players but this will not stay static; staff are committed to making sure things will improve and that such things do not happen. It sounds as if nothing else, the server being passworded is seriously being discussed.

You're also forgetting that if you indeed do get griefed and you have screenshots/log as proof, I'm sure DMs will help you out and address the situation if you explain carefully and provide proof.

[Scarlett]

Ithildur, I was referring to undeads idea. If we dropped our gear on death, we would have many more PVP's I think. But maybe that's just me...

I believe in this:

RP what is there; if you're near death, stagger when you walk, use track to actually walk, emoting as you go. Things like that add realism to the fact that you're near the brink of the end. Should you die, and be revived, you can say thanks, but I usually tell people after I revive them not to do too much or else the wound would open back up and they would take damage/get hurt again...say, couldn't you add that to the ''you awake but all from your wounds'' script? If they run about 5 or so minutes after dearth real time, that they take damage over time or per action, something like that? Sounds like a good idea to me.

15-20 minutes real time for a respawn seems fine to me. After you die, there are things you need to go through, RP Wise. Deities play a big part here, otherwise you just can;t return to the 'plane of the living' until your soul is collected, or whatever excuse you wish to make.

That's my 2 cents.