How Do You Feel about Sundren's Leveling Pace?

[Lotus]

Per the subject, we're looking for feedback on the pace at which new PCs level on Sundren.

We think that players are missing a lot of the server's content due to the rapid pace at which characters can level on Sundren. That's a shame, given how pretty our server is.

We're also concerned that PCs are hitting epic levels without epic backgrounds; mechanically powerful PCs don't have the opportunity for enriching events that illustrate the PC's growth from novice adventurer to renowned Sundarian personality when the leveling treadmill is so quickly completed.

Finally, we think that PCs would remain mechanically interesting longer, independent of RP, if the rate of advancement were curbed.

So, how do you feel about Sundren's leveling pace? Please choose a poll option, and comments are welcome.

[Elusa]

I think it's fine, with the exception of epic levels. I feel that entry into epic levels should require DM approval, because as you said, there are epic level characters that aren't epic, whether by plot or background. There are also characters that are epic, but don't have epic levels because they spent more time RPing.

On the flip side, I can see the argument for leveling being too fast. Leveling should be part of RP, and right now it's not. Rather, leveling is something done so you can act badass when you do RP.

I have a few suggestions: First, bump up the RP exp. 30 exp ticks are a joke when you can go out and kill 3 mobs instead. Second, decrease the bonus exp for defeating mobs that have a higher level than you. The reason I say this is because power-builds, who are often (but not always) RP minimalists, can breeze through levels because their builds are just that broken. Or else they exploit some loophole in the mechanics.

[Lotus]

I think it's fine, with the exception of epic levels. I feel that entry into epic levels should require DM approval

That's how we used to do it, but unfortunately, our DM coverage waxes and wanes, and we seldom have the staff necessary to cover all of the timezones. For that reason, the daily quests were implemented to give PCs a means to progress into the epics without DM intervention. I would describe the dailies as "works in progress" in regards to difficulty, structure, and reward.

[Elusa]

That's how we used to do it, but unfortunately, our DM coverage waxes and wanes, and we seldom have the staff necessary to cover all of the timezones.

Yeah, I was around during that time. There were also problems with non-factioned characters getting shafted and multi-hour events that gave a paltry amount of exp. What I meant was a one-time approval, after which dailies would give exp beyond level 20.

[Lotus]

Yeah, but there again, the whole timezone thing. It's just not worth alienating our non-left-side-of-the-Atlantic players.

[Jhickey]

I have to go with just right. I really don't see an issue in it because it is at it is up to the player how they are going to play their PC. I have seen both side of the coin, it took me over 2 years to level Datton to 20. While it took me less than a year to level up one of my alts to 20. I didn't mind either pace as they were two differing situations. One was my main and I took great pride in how he was developing and what I want out of him, and my alts are often there to give me a reason to just get on and enjoy the game, play with friends who are attempting to level their PCs. Use them to see and experience different zones that I don't see that often.

At the end of the day it is up to the player, what is fun for him/her, and how they are going to enjoy the game. If someone wants to power build and steam through to epic levels, so be it. If they want to build their PC through RP, so be it. If for some reason you don't enjoy playing that style, don't. It is that simple.

[gamestarmike]

I would say leveling past 10 is at a good pace, im enjoying it all again as I relevel Tyranus back to 20. Going through all of Argyle again was a lot of fun and I even explored the giant tower on top of the hill, that place was cool! I'd only recommend someone look over the inside buildings in the village and I think that place would be 100%!


3-9 should get looked over though, maybe increasing the exp to match the higher level grind, that way people stay around the lower levels longer and if the staff had the time to supplement that longer grind with more lower level rp content then im sure it get around to where staff would like the pace and fine tune it as time goes.

[Fuzziebunny]

It took me about 6 months to get Chime to 20. I did tons of RP, though it was not the world changing sort of RP with events and all that. Mostly it was just character to character stuff. It was more the sort of thing that establishes personality and makes her known to the various other characters.

I do agree that there is a rather odd imbalance at the epic levels at times. My thoughts are less on changing the leveling though. I would rather see the established characters get rewarded for making a reputation. I don't know if there is a good way to do that or not.

[thaelis]

It really all depends on what class you are and what timezone. As a Swashbuckler/EK it took less than 3 months to hit twenty, and that was in a poor timezone where I was alone on the server much of the time. My other characters were markedly more torturous to level (Ranger and Wizard), but still reached twenty in well under 6 months.

Epic levels, I have no idea. Personally I only got 1/20th the way to level 21 since the inception of the Epic quest, but again I think that's a timezone issue.

I voted "Too fast" because I've seen people hit 20 in <2 weeks, but from what I'm reading here perhaps they were just anomalies...

[Lotus]

Three people who know what they're doing could hit 20 inside of a week very easily.

[gamestarmike]

I've made a 20 in 3 days, just depends if you have a full group and the time to spend.

[ManUtd4Ever]

Yeah, but there again, the whole timezone thing. It's just not worth alienating our non-left-side-of-the-Atlantic players.

I really appreciate this. I am the only person on the server about 40% of the time when I log in. Or... I log in and there are two or three people in game, but AFK.

I've written on this topic before. I hated when there were level caps right up until the point that there weren't level caps anymore. I found it more rewarding taking 26 server days and 1 RL year to make 20th level with Cesar. But I fully understand the direction the server has taken, thus deciding not to return to that limiting factor.

I will adjust to whatever level pace is set by the staff. I would like the daily epic quests to continue in some capacity. They have enabled those who are willing into log into the server everyday to reach epic levels in 3.5 months. Additional levels take a little longer.

I do not believe this is too quick because the daily quests does not benefit the casual player as much as someone dedicated enough to log in everyday.

Cheers!

[Kitsunestume]

Good day all,

I would say we currently have the 'just right' mount of XP - on average. But that is across our currently three sources of XP. the way I see it, these three sources are:

1. Killing Mobs - very fast XP, particularly if you know how to kill what your killing and where to find them.
2. RP 'Trickle' - Very slow XP, granted more or less from standing around outside of AFK, does not prevent use of other methods.
3. Event/Quest Rewards - Low to moderate XP for lower levels, relies on having a DM in your timezone and on DM generosity. Quests currently are all of the "Go somewhere & kill stuff" variety - see point 1.

My observation is that since the primary source of XP on the server is killing stuff, the people who are good at killing stuff and knowing where to kill the 'good stuff' would experience exceedingly increased rates of XP gain. On the flip side, anyone who sits down and RP - or has no-one to RP with, a valid concern with low pop numbers - is rather effectively getting a dramatically visible handicap in terms of tangible character progression.

I personally would advise against nerfing the rate of XP gain without modifying or increasing the number of potential and viable means of gaining experience. Elusa had a rather solid suggestion earlier:

I have a few suggestions: First, bump up the RP exp. 30 exp ticks are a joke when you can go out and kill 3 mobs instead. Second, decrease the bonus exp for defeating mobs that have a higher level than you. The reason I say this is because power-builds, who are often (but not always) RP minimalists, can breeze through levels because their builds are just that broken. Or else they exploit some loophole in the mechanics.

: But it doesn't exactly reward interaction.

I could see a potential additional source in the strength of our robust Faction system, which seems largely untapped. Critique in the past has been that faction leaders seem largely powerless without DMs to grant them power. In brief suggestion, perhaps it could be arranged that higher tiers of faction members could be used to offer a greater variety of non-material rewards to lower levels and ranks - both Rep and XP. As has been broached before, the Thane of Whurest needing to decide which single individual out of the team of adventurers helping him today gets to be recognized doesn't really make sense, when it would be the team getting recognition. Similarly, a dichotomy appears wherein Bozo the Clown can give you XP for delivering a box to the next town over, but the Grand Marshal of Sestra needs to file 16 forms and wait till the next blue moon before he can get clearance to have someone else grant XP for single-handedly saving his arse from a crack-team of legion assassins or securing a critical item while not overseen by DM. Granting trust and responsibility to faction leaders may be a valid solution to making a more interactive and interconnected world, but discussion there might be beyond the scope of this poll.

TL : DR - The current primary means of getting XP is killing stuff. Ergo, people who kill stuff well get to level fast, while people who can't or don't kill stuff level slow. Solution may be to offer alternate means of character advancement that doesn't (directly) involve killing stuff.

[Lotus]

So far, everyone's been pretty thoughtful and constructive. I appreciate it.

I think, ultimately, I'd like to bring monster xp down and RP xp up, but not if it's against the wishes of the majority of the playerbase.

The time-released level cap, as it once was, was pretty punishing. Basically, it dictated how people would spend their time on logging in, which is never something we want to do. Obviously, we want people to RP, but if you feel like logging in and killing some orcs between class and work, that's cool, too.

I agree that we need to incentivize RP more, and hopefully in a way that doesn't require significant DM oversight, but I also feel that the possibility of monster-grinding to 20 in 3 days, as gamestarmike mentioned, is problematic; if the low-level content can be bypassed so quickly, and it remains so, wouldn't we be better served making the starting level 20 and refitting all of the areas for 20+?

Obviously, we're not going to do that, but the way we're currently operating, it feels like Sundren "starts" at level 20, and really, I'd like Sundren to feel like it "starts" at 3, or maybe 6.

[[DM] Grinning Death]

Hate to break it to you, Kit, but we've tried that in several forms. We've bounced around the idea of giving faction leaders the ability to rep more than once, or to offer greater rep per day (which is once per in game day, not reset).

But the critique that DMs have left faction leaders powerless is without merit. We have been more than accommodating to faction leaders wishing to alter ranks, grant rank, or offer xp for faction RP. Further still, we've altered the structure of the faction system as a whole to allow PC's to lead factions, rather than the NPC based system we have had before.

The critique I would suggest is that some leaders of factions treat their positions as a casual appointment, rather than a responsibility to their fellow players. Not all, mind you. But in cases where a PC has been offered a position at the head of a faction and then left without making arrangements for their successor, the faction tends to fall apart.

As for xp, I would be in favor of adding RP xp to the ticker, but also xp for actions such as crafting/resource gathering. Not more than how much you would gain fighting mobs, but enough per day to make up for a short dungeon run.