Do you feel your character can make a difference?

[Thief Of Navarre]

Must agree with Kaeldorn. You have an idea of what things must be like in Sundren!

Like any company you have to give the management an awesome idea and make it look as though they thought of it in the first place

i.e.

Manager: "So Sam, any ideas on how we can make the company better?
Sam: "What a good surgestion! Merge the finanaces team with the payroll department. Im glad you thought of it sir!"
Manager: "Errmm, yes... YES! Thought of it I did!"

Not trying to be coy but this is how humans work. Us lowly players cant think of anything the team cant so most of our roleplaying comes to a swift and uninspiring conclusion. This isnt a dig, its just how things are! We cant affect the world unless you thought of it first... The best idea would be to tell us what you intend in sundren and we can sway our roleplay towards it just to get some sense of acheivement.

[greypawn]

Voted no.

The factions seem to always have been seen in the same light and characters who embrace what their faction stands for seem to be rewarded more so then the player character who tries to take their faction into a certain direction.

[kovah]

/not concerned

While I think that players do have an influence on things in Sundren I'm also inclined to agree with Kael. That being said - in my few years (off and on and rather random) in Sundren - I'd argue that the devs/DMs do a great job of adjusting to players and player situations.

I've always felt that those with more playtime and, thusly, longer play history, HAVE in fact influenced much around here. I've also found that those group of long time/hardcore players have more influence and say and tend to be more clickish (not as excepting of outsiders). But, while that initially bothered me about this server - after so much time of coming and going here I've seen how much "those people" change up and then things on the server adjust.

I've played on a number of servers for this game. I rarely, read: never, go back to those other servers yet I'm always drawn back here to Sundren.... Gotta be a reason for that....

/ass kissing done - plz carry on

[GodBeastX]

I just want everyone to have fun. That's why I asked the players how they feel. Judging by the response, I feel it was right to ask. I do my best to keep things open and enjoyable, but it's clear there's more to be done.

Thief, it's not really a question of what I want. I just want to have fun just like you guys. I pay attention to the background lore, yes, but I like to be the role of referee. There's no asset I myself have created that isn't expendable. Most of the big things I tend to do are player initiated. Such as today when a player just asked for me to throw him a bone, and I hope he enjoyed the larger than expected outcome. Hell, the whole Gen'Deimos death deal was player initiated as well. I really hate sticking to a set plot, which is probably why I havn't written one.

However, things like that only work if players request the bone. I'd like people to feel empowered and see their efforts become more than a moment's difference. I'm finding out today alot of good ideas have gone without being submitted out of the idea nobody would be willing to go along with it. This can be discouraging for me as well. It's part of what prompted the poll. I do try to give players a push to persue things, but often I walk away and they havn't given it a second thought. One example is the whole Myrkul revival. I've given prompts for good guys and bad guys on this regard. Waiting to see if it gets thwarted or succeeds. It's whoever gets there first really

I've only been around a couple months though, I don't know how things have been up until then. I've had to catchup on alot of events myself (Players love to point things out to me during events that I miss ) However, I'm hoping we can do a lot better on this whole deal. I'm one willing to take feedback, and there's a PM box with a few suggestions from people who've replied here I'm ready to incorporate.

[Phantom Lamb]

I'm really not happy with the phrasing of this poll. I think if you posed this question on any server, you'd get the same results. Players always want to make a difference, and who can blame them? It's extremely hard to support it in a NWN environment to the same level as a PNP environment because adding dynamic content takes work.

If folks have some concrete suggestions for the DM team, I'm really all ears. If we're lacking DM client hours, lacking DM courage to do new things, etc... that sort of feedback is useful. This poll... eh. It's a softball question.

[Usurper]

I voted for the first choice and I support it in anyway possible.

Yes,PCs have made a difference and a change in the past and I would love to see this nurtured even more in the future if possible.

[Bishop Cornelius]

I believe characters (mine included) can indeed influence changes (if not entirely outright change them through their sheer will), however there is a fine balance between change and stability in any persistant world...

[Doubtful]

I've seen PC have a long lasting impact on the server, both in terms of becoming legends amongst their peers, and in terms of permanent in-game changes.

While I agree with PL that the poll is skewed, it is still clear that the majority of votes say 'No'.

I'd be very interested to hear why people feel this, and how we, as DM and DEV teams, can work with you, the players, to improve this.

[Redjack]

I think a pc can have influence.
There are limits since a pc can not really kill his enemies once and for all or destroy or build structures. But you can influence other PC's actions. Perhaps playing the extreme ends of the alignment spectrum makes this easier then if you act in a more neutral fashion.
I can think of one event where a pc caused major changes in the world of Sundren even though it might have not been what he had set out to accomplish.
All the same I think it would make things all the more interesting if players could introduce story ideas. Perhaps this is already being done? Of course that still places the pressure on the DMs to develop and cause it to all happen.

[Zoberraz]

Sundren is a great persistent world setting. However, having the setting mutable to player difference was never one of its strong points. Saulus has always had a clear vision of what he wanted his persistent world setting to be and while some in his staff were sometimes able to tug things this way and that, it's become my understanding that it meant backstage head-butting to have those staffers get their way.

I know (as do some of the much older people around here) where this lead to once, the first time I played my elven ranger Maia (and it was the reason I've needed to make her a second time). I'll not be going into that.

My second romp on Sundren did not prove this to be different. It was obvious that if anything like a player faction (my point of reference is the Circle of Voices I created in this setting's heydays, but more recently it was the dwarf player faction) became strong and significant enough, it would still not receive any kind of established support (be it only a forum space to interact in).

The setting those not allow you to come in and carve a space. To build something up from nothing. It's one of the big reasons why I preferred The Frontier at some point - because in Frontier, player input made much more of a difference (until it shutdown and was reborn as something that in my opinion was far, far inferior to the original).

As Maia, the high-level elven ranger, I've mostly felt I had the impact of a feather floating on the water, gently drifting away. In all my time on Sundren, my character never got accomplished, experienced or renown enough to have guards or people of position take notice. She was always dried mud under the boot of some guard, regardless of accomplishments.

Not every DM likes making stuff that nature oriented and would appeal to rangers/druids. Not while I was online anyways. Those whom might bother in my experience might just actually like me or my character and go and do such things... but I've ironically never been fond of that kind of favoritism. I've seen it before, seen in cause conflict amongst DM staff, and today I tend to avoid it from happening. No, that doesn't help.

Elves are also a minority, so, the race choice doesn't seem to have much of an impact in Sundren. I've always been fond of the racial identity thing personally, but it seems much less applicable in Sundren now. Back when it was more applicable, and that changes were actually made for that, I was being constantly reminded by GBX on how lucky my faction was, as if he was constantly putting in doubt that it deserved to have, say, a stronghold. Having something that felt like a concession bitterly handed away always felt wrong to me, personally. Was building us a sand castle within the sandbox of Saulus' world so very bad?

Also, regarding religion, Sundren has its core religion... and if you happen to be an elf praying Corellon, an halfling praying Yondalla, or a dwarf praying Moradin... you'll never see those deities represented in any way in the setting. In that way, you'll always be an outsider. It's a minor point, but I never liked that. I think some concession to racial pantheons would've gone a long way.

All this sounds rather uncomplimentary from me so far. However, in my second jaunt on sundren, I've noticed that if you created your character for Sundren you could get much more out of the setting. Race is very superfluous, so the best race for Sundren is probably human. You need to be part of one of the factions that's been established in it. You're probably better off praying an existing represented deity in the setting as well.

If you do that, there's actually seems to be a lot of accomplishments you can possibly do in some of the higher profile factions, or in the name thereof, so you get to adopt some of that identity and involve yourself in the inter-faction politicking that does go on. The inter-faction politicking will eventually reset itself into a status quo sooner or later (for obvious reasons similar to why monsters will never be cleaned out of a lair, but on a grander scale), but out of the roleplay that goes on there, people will still remember your deeds.

So, characters like Osclow, like Hano and like Peridan would prove me wrong if I say that a character cannot be of any import or difference to the setting. Those characters have seemed, to me, capable of making their mark.

So, there's a way to go with the flow of the setting and that if you go along with the current, you may end up going pretty far. However outside of those boundaries it is much less likely.

Is that as bad as it sounds? No, not that much, despite me being rather critical over it. There were points where I was bitter about it, but I'm not really anymore because in time, I've understood what made the gears work.

In time I've accepted not to expect of Sundren more than what Sundren is... and if you take the time to look at what Sundren does have, rather than what it doesn't have you end up seeing a lot of positive points. It's a sandbox - it has a wooden boundary, sand for you to play in and try to shape, and when the rain comes it'll smoothen all of it down. You'll remember playing, some of your playmates might remember playing in it... and that's what a sandbox is all about - to provide people the fun of playing in a small square area filled with sand.

[Phantom Lamb]

Asking for player factions takes a LOT of work. Making new factions requires much, much more than simply DM support. There is scripting, mapping, item creation, lore creation, and store set-up. We have tried to incorporate player-driven results in subfactions -- how soon we forget Corps de Grace! -- but it simply is unreasonable for this to happen for everyone.

I do agree that DMs can do a better job of supporting factions they don't fully enjoy or know about. I've already addressed this with our team. Not liking Nature classes isn't a reason to dodge them in support.

Lastly, please don't comment about second-hand information from disgruntled former staff. That's vastly unfair to make comments about Saulus' vision and butting heads behind the scene when you're not part of that scene. If one person is at odds with a team of people, it can certainly be frustrating for that one person. Commenting about someone else's frustration that you heard about through tells? Unfortunately, in forums, the folks who are disgruntled tend to speak more loudly and more often than those who are not. Bear that in mind, especially when commenting second-hand.

I'm really frustrated by this poll, so let's please steer it away from TLDR and away from sour grapes. Remember, we put a lot of effort into building this world -- a LOT. There are people behind the scenes whose pride and heart went into this. Just take that into account when you reply here. Thank you.

[Cornuto]

For those that think there's a problem and room for improvement, I'd like to hear concrete suggestions on what you would like to see modified in the module. Identifying a problem only gets us half-way there.

[BedlamX]

Personally, I don't really care if any of my characters can "change the world"...especially by themselves. I have never been one of the "look at me" crowd. Nothing wrong with that play style...just not me. The wiki specifically says that factions are the best way to gain attention from staff. This is how the server was presented to me before I joined. Do I think staff could do more for those non-aligned characters? Yep. But, in all honesty, how many characters are actually active in any given faction? I only see 2 Hands, a couple Legion, and a small few Thayans or Red Blades (and my wife and I make up half of each of the last two I see as active). Even "faction-oriented" events need characters from outside them or it will be a 2 or 3 person party. The two characters I play that have had the most event time are both unafilliated.

As I said earlier, none of my characters are going to make significant world changes. Most people never even see or hear of my more used toons. As long as I have fun, that is perfectly fine with me. Could any of my characters make changes? Probably. If I really worked at it. Look at the kelemvor and Sune temples. Best I can figure, they were added (or rebuilt in the case of kelemvorite) as a responce to character actions. not one character's action. Multiple characters working together (or just showing a mass interest in a particular diety). I have even seen one solitary character do a lot of work trying to undermine one of the factions. If he could have kept it up and everyone would have played along, I think his actions would have made a substantial change to how that faction was seen or how it operated.

So it can be done. But I think massive changes should be from the work of a good sized group. Not just a single character. Just my thoughts.

And sorry, GBX...I don't really like the choices given in the poll, either. Two extremes and an abstain choice doesn't really work well for me. I had to vote 3 (for the abstain) since I don't feel either of the other two choices fits my feelings on the matter.

[Zoberraz]

Phantom Lamb, I just spent an hour formulating that post, going out of my way and making an effort to provide feedback that was asked... and you label it as a tl,dr? Why not just say "Zob, shut up. I do not care what you think." It'd end up being the same thing. I'm not asking for favors and I'm not whining either. I'm helpfully providing feedback and when that's asked, you have to be able to expect that it won't be all roses.

As amazing as it would be to contemplate, I wouldn't have done that if I did not have some degree of regard, fondness and respect for this fruit of the Staff's genius. Perish the idea of the contrary.

Sundren had a previous iteration. People wanted more creative liberties, people bashed heads, things didn't work out, it was taken down, and restarted. We're human, it happens. From what I've seen, things are working a whole lot better now. And lo and behold, those former sour staffers... they are still here. These people seem to have gone past those differences, and Sundren is now likely much stronger for it.

I, for one, never thought that shoving dust under the carpet meant things were truly cleaner. I've never thought you could improve something by simply ignoring it because it was convenient to do so. That's just not how humans grow.

In any case, GBX, you've my reply. May it be of some help to you.

[Maevan2]

Shar's Abaddon? Sestra? Two chances to change the face of Sundren. What did we do with them? Nothing.