What Stat Bonuses are Appropriate for Items?

[Captain Caveman]

Kind of a tough one for me, I joined Sundren because it had the +3 limit on most things and I prefer low magic settings but I see the need for a new tier as well, what we have is somewhat lacking for higher level charactors who are not crafters.
It's hard to discuss it without leveraging the talk of casters into it but I'll keep it short and on point.

I'd say +4 for a stat bonus item seems reasonable ( costing extreme gold and/or lvl restricted), it's something that going to be on all the time 24/7 on your person ( even if surprised ) with +5 an extremely rare DM given for "above and beyond" type RP maybe.

[TheBrogueadier]

+5

However, +4 should be the highest player craftable (which is what I’ve voted for), with +5 reserved for DM ultra-reward (as Capt.Caveman said).

While it might be nice to have a low-magic setting, it’s plain to see that Sundren isn’t (Previously I would have said different, but I’ve had a bit of a rethink).

All that limiting item bonuses to +3 does is encourage a proliferation of cleric/FS and mage/sorc classes, creating the opposite of a low magic setting – If you want low magic, make all magic using classes PRC or application only.

Plus, a large portion of the NPC enemies on the server seem to have high stat items, so why not the player.

[gbbishop]

I think kael's example of the +3 cha cloak was nice. It illustrates a very powerful item in my mind. least for the diplomat. For me, though, I would not mind seeing +4 or even +5 and if you are gonna hit +5 why not allow for +6.

Really I do not want to see crafters pumpin out +5s. perhaps rare metals meterials and/or an insane craft fatigue (75ish) could help mitigate. Let just say, I would like it to be possible, but there needs to be some serious effort on the part of the crafter.

[Cornuto]

... and/or an insane craft fatigue (75ish) ...

I'd agree that fatigue needs some adjusting (or perhaps even removal). We're playing in a world were you can have a severed limb regenerated instantly if you know a cleric or druid of sufficient level, and the life draining powers of the undead can be prayed away in the bat of an eye. However, the drain from making two sets of full plate will sap you persistently for a month. One wonders how Braxis or Foulbreath manages to walk up a flight of stairs without collapsing.

[Urithrand]

+3. I think people are letting their objectivity become a bit skewed here...

Corny, don't make me slap you for derailing the thread again

[RPMike17]

I'm in for +3 stat boost as well. Maybe +4 in a draft form only from a DM.

IMHO, a high lvl player should already have high stats in what their character should have. The reason for the low lvl magic in Sundren, I always thought, was because this was RP server.

Crafting, socketable items allow a couple +3 stat boost possiblities, that do not have to be recast and do not have a finite duration. So a caster would have to keep re-casting his persistant/long duration stat boosts - and they can be dispelled. So I feel balance exsists.

I think +3 drafts, plans and recipes should be passed out by DM's and high level drops that way more crafting RP happens, more socketable items get made for those high lvl players. Instead of just getting a +5 item, you can make a 2 socket item with +3 boosts. If your needs change, you get new gems in the sockets to boost other stats.

NPC's have to play by the same rules though, the chance of some Cartel thug having an uber-item is rare. The boss may have one, but not all his minions. Minion could have a draft though that he was saving for when he made enough $$.

[Phantom Lamb]

Since the conversation is evolving in that direction, let me just add a word on the crafting system.

Currently, we don't have a true expert. Kael designed the system, but he has moved on to greener pastures. It's unlikely that we'll implement any new craftable items as things stand. It takes too long to master someone else's scripts. Although Kael did a good job of leaving a documentation trail, the level of effort required to truly master the system is higher than what we can really invest right now. We're focused on other things currently.

There ARE tons of items out there like the ones that Kael mentioned--within faction stores.

If you want to discuss more, feel free since the door is opened. Keep in mind, we won't be changing how faction stores work, nor that they hold better items for faction members than what is attainable for non-faction PCs.

[prismaticcrow]

From a balance point of view, I think +4 stat enhancing items are perfectly fine. Consider that most spellcasters simply cast stat-enhancing spells like bull's strength and bear's endurance anyway, often times, even extending or persisting these spells.

[nezzerscape]

Hmm, it is a hard call. I like the idea of low magic but I feel that it is unbalanced. Melee characters have a harder time at higher levels and casters. Please keep in mind that this is based on observation. There are areas that a melee char has not hope of going into without the help of a caster. The same area can then be going through (not easily mind you) by a caster of the same level. This led me to feel that (at higher levels) casters have the advantage.

I understand that at low levels melee has the advantage but at what level it the cut over 5, 10? (I know at 10+ casters have the advantage). A caster can beef him/herself up to have the same stats of a melee char who depends on it for combat, then turns around and has more spells to attach with to boot…

I am not sure how the balance should be restored, reduce the effects of spells / there durations, beef up melee chars?

There has been some discussion on this and I would fall in line with +4 to stats and make those only usable for select character types / levels. Perhaps +4 armor only comes in plate (I hope not, dex fighters here), or the weight of the item is such that only chars of high strength to use them. The better approach might me limit the item to class type, gloves of the hin for example. Or +4 STR and -4 CH. That way only a melee char would what to use it.

I understand the crafting system is at a standstill and a DM does not want to sit there and generate equipment, which they should not, they should be telling stories.
To sum up my wandering statements: Sundren needs to be rebalanced, but not sure how. I think +4 is reasonable. Adding negatives to items may be the key to aligning them to classes.

[nezzerscape]

I was just thinking, while relying to another tread, perhaps this may help to level the field:

“Not sure if this is the place, but if you are looking into revamping these items, how about changing the strengths of the resulting items based on level of crafter or fatigue. Barkskin potion used by my melee characters make them less useful, for they run out quickly. The same spell cast by a higher level char would last much longer thus being more useful.
I would seek out alchemist to provide me something that is truly useful instead of getting pummeled while I search for another done in my bag.
This might be over kill and impossible to do, but like alcohol, if I was to drink more in a row (prior to battle) have it last longer!
Just my 2 cents.”

[GodBeastX]

I have felt attribute bonuses should go up to +6, skills much higher, and other bonuses like Attack, Enhancement, AC, to 3 or 4.

[Kaizen]

I have felt attribute bonuses should go up to +6, skills much higher, and other bonuses like Attack, Enhancement, AC, to 3 or 4.

Agreed, although i think attributes should be at +5. +6 seems a little high, and the +5 evens out those at level 20 who have a stat stuck at an odd number.

[GodBeastX]

+6 in a stat is only a +3 bonus to modifier. Part of the reason I like +6 over +3 is the fact it makes people still effective without utter min/maxing. A barbarian, for example, might start with 18 con and 14 STR and be able to get a +str item so he can actually do some kind of damage.

I don't think people realize how nerf'd the creatures are in Sundren because of people's equipment levels. Since clerics/casters can buff everything to the item levels we're discussing, they just mop the floor with every encounter.

Granted, we're likely to keep stat bonuses on specific items, so people may not be able to stack every stat, save, skill, etc.

[Kaizen]

Fair enough, that makes alot of sense. I just can't imagine my yaun ti sorc running around with 32 charisma at 20. just wow. that's an insane high DC, plus the ability to cast seven 9th circle spells.


as for clerics - well, i'll make just make a new thread about toning down stonebody.

[GodBeastX]

High DC for who? I saw one player at level 20 with 32 will save... Good luck bypassing that with a spell