What Stat Bonuses are Appropriate for Items?

[Phantom Lamb]

Our item standards are slightly out-of-date. The "red tier" was a standard set up for a level 1 - 15 environment. We will most-likely introduce a "purple" (yes, epix) tier for the next rung.

Why? We need items to keep pace with casters. I do believe that high level wizards should be powerful--a pay off for their low-level challenges. But the disparity between melee power and magic power at higher levels is greater than what we would like.

As we shoot for new standards, an issue of debate has been stat bonuses. What do you feel is the most STR, INT, etc. boost an item should give at this epic tier? Do keep in mind: we still envision Sundren as a "lower-than-average" magic environment.

[Tome]

It would be rather interesting if there was a way to make it so that the BEST weapons could only be used by those that were strictly devoted to martial prowess. You could use their unmodified number of attacks per round to determine what 'rank' of weapon they could use. A pure fighter-esque class for example could wield a weapon that could be enchanted up to +4 and have 3 other enchantments placed on it, while an eldritch knight, cleric, or bard build could most likely only use a weapon that could be enchanted to a maximum of +3 and have only 2 other enchantments placed upon it.

I believe things are more 'balanced' than most give it credit for, however I do think a few things could stand to be changed at least a little. Some spells (particularly DR spells) could be nerfed. That alone would make a difference. There could perhaps be slightly higher stats on items that aid in physical attributes than magical ones (+3-4 bonuses to STR, DEX, & CON, +1-3 bonuses on INT & WIS). For the occassional physical types that depends on things like INT or WIS (Swashbucklers, Invisible Blades, Assassins, Monks, etc) we could perhaps create class-unique items. One of the biggest things we could do as well would be to make on hit: dispel weapons and/or enchantments available.

[TheBlankStare]

I kind of agree with Tome. But I think that if you're going to let a fighter have a +4 great sword a wizard should be able to have one too (or a +4 quarterstaff). Weapons and armor should probably be limited to a +3 enhancement bonus at most.

Bigger enhancement bonuses should be limited to the temporary effects that only casters can create "on the spot." Another way to "balance" weapons and armor with higher enhancement bonuses might be to require them to be made from mithril or adamantine. This should be easy to do with our "recipe system." The material required for a +3 or +4 enhancement bonus could be tied to it's relative rarity and difficulty in obtaining.

I think that +4 should probably be the limit for any enhancement bonuses to any ability scores unless it's a totally unique type of item. In fact, I'd even go along with any enhancement bonus to an ability score granted by an item that is greater than +3 also have a -1 or -2 penalty to CON.

It's difficult to determine what an appropriate penalty might be though. It might have to be adjusted a bit but I think -2 would work nicely. Even penalties to certain saves might be appropriate.

[Cornuto]

wizard should be able to have one too (or a +4 quarterstaff)

He can have a +5 as it is all for the cost of casting Greater Magic Weapon, or did you mean stat bonuses.

[TheBlankStare]

That was just the enhancement bonus for the staff. As a wizard he'd never be as good as a fighter but I just don't see any reason to limit the enhancement bonus that a character is allowed to use based on number of attacks per round that they can make is all.

[Phantom Lamb]

Let's limit this discussion to stat bonuses please. STR, INT, etc. Thanks

[Kaeldorn]

Simply adding in a few craftable items with side-bonuses (skill bonuses, gem sockets, saving throws, spells, what have you) would already solve the issue of needing some top quality gear available around the highest levels.

An example of an item I made, but which has yet to receive a recipe to be included in the game..

Mantle of Heavenly Grace (cloak)
Charisma +3
Diplomacy +2
Hide -3
Light (Low - 10m, yellow)
Protection from Evil 1/day
1 gem socket

It has a definite edge on the Nymph's Cloak +3 (1 socket also) at least. And the combination of bonuses makes sense. Needless to say, that level of item would make it quite rare. It would be surprising if more than 2 people on the server wore such an item at the same time.

[BedlamX]

I think +4 is a good stat bonus level on items. It's what Bull's Strength and others such spells give, so I think it should be good for non caster items. Maybe a +6 if the items were made so you could really only get 1 or 2 stats raised (maybe only one physical and one mental?). A fighter with a +6 to all physical attributes is a beast even against a comparable leveled wizard. I have played on several servers that limited ability boosting items to one kind of item (like gloves, rings, or necklaces) so you had to pick which stat you wanted boosted. Perhaps even a +2 with the capability of casting the appropriate enhacing spell 3 times a day to boost it up to +4 for short durations?

[Maevan2]

+8 for my chars, +1 for everybody else

[Usurper]

+4 should be out there,but not readily avaiable at your usual 7/11.

It's only right since caster's spells have more of an improvement now that PCs can make epic status.

[Kaeldorn]

Not a popular opinion I am aware, but I wouldn't be against toning down the more über spells instead of beefing up items in order to maintain the balance and to keep it low magic...

Of course, I don't even really play here anymore, so whatever goes. I just hope poor Zork will be saved the trouble of rebalancing stuff

[Phantom Lamb]

Folks, please stay on topic. Even those that don't play here any longer! Let's limit our scope to stat bonus discussion--I posted this for a reason. Thanks

[Zoberraz]

It's my feeling that Sundren loses little by allowing people to access the full range of +1 to +5 weapons, simply because that's what Dungeons and Dragons does.

Having multiple properties per weapons sounds good too, though I feel that the more powerful pluses a weapon has, the more properties they should hold as well. I dislike the thought of plain +5 swords. If someone made a +5 sword, then it's an powerfully enchanted weapon that should be special, that should have a defined identity.

Stat bonuses? Same argument. D&D has +2 through +6 - so, I feel it's fine as well to have them around. In fact, D&D makes the +6 stuff easy to have around level 12-15. I'm not saying you follow the exact same formula (otherwise, we'd see mithral around level 4 and that's definitely not happening)... but it's important to remember that casters get access to such boosts around level 3, they can make those last a lot longer around level 5... and by level 10-14 they get spells that give much larger statistical benefits (that druid turtle natural ac spell, for example).

I'm not fond of flaws showing up in magical items, however. For example, the cloak Kaeldorn posted with the light radius? That's possibly a disadvantage for some. Not everyone is fond of beer with a bad aftertaste. The same goes for magical items.

That's my opinion.

Yes, this may mean many high level people having many high powered magic items by the end... but that's not any more ridiculous than a server having several level 15 characters. Or crazy gnome necromancers and undead cows.

[Fezzik]

If you're really ambitious with the crafting, instead of just "failing" and lossing the money, you could throw in "errors".

"Damn, my +3 Longsword is near anything that breaths within 30 feet it squeels? [-10 move silently]... I'm going to have to have a talk with that wizard!"

Anyway, I chose +4 to balance the stats from spells.

[Thief Of Navarre]

I dont think +4 on stats will unbalance the game since most character can run around buffed to the hilt.

i.e. Falmari casts DC23 Bulls Strength on Mitee the Fighter. It lasts for thirty two real time minutes and increases his strength by +4 (+6 if empowered). He might also cast freedom of movement and stoneskin on him with a side order of barkskin and superior resistance of which the latter has a massive 24hrs or untill rest duration. Which is more overpowered; stats or spells?

As far as I know they dont stack. So aside from in PvP combat it makes little difference what source the bonus comes from as long as the price is right. imo a plus four item should be a elven lifesavings (about 700+ years)