What do you think of the new Sundren Crafting system?

[Phantom Lamb]

Is there to be an elitism on certain recipies or are all possibilities going to be within reach of the players?

Eloquent as usual Az...

It's a work in-progress. Drop rates and availabilities are under review and being tweaked. Constructively-phrased feedback is always appreciated toward helping us adjust the system.

[Subal]

i have discussed with most my thoughts on the new crafting system, i belive in the long run it will end up being absolutly incredible. But keep in mind folks this is still beta' kael , saul and all the guys are still working kinks and buggs out of the system. As for what Az said, i do agree slightly with the portions of how the plans are layed out, as basically those that can farm. yes i use the word farm because that is what its causing now. When the only way too reach a plan is too kill monsters over and over, well it causes that too happen.
I do belive there needs too be a alternate way such as a trainer, perhaps he doesnt have the craft arm's magic feat so he cant teach you too build a +3 katana of uber kick assness, but i belive a simple cold iron sword, a simple admantine great axe, or a simple suit of chainmail should be capable of reaching. After all the skill is using the metal, not the armor . Armor doesnt change from one style too the other unless you are designing it too be different. A face plate still does the same thing. save your face, the only difference is the skill level too use the metal's .

Does one understand that this metal bends more easly at a certain temp, do they understand when too cool it , or how too fold the metal and creatue layers ?

That is were the skills are making the difference,The crafting, not the design.

well thats my 2 cents!

[Leevoth]

I think the crafting is really well done (congrats!) and has lots of potential, (here comes the but) but I just don't like the rate at which fatigue regenerates.

Even if it were 2/day instead I think that would make a big difference.

[DireBadgerEntersRage]

As many others, I am yet to craft anything myself, but from what I can see/understand, I would stop on "It's okay."

I like the possibility to craft lots of different items, but..

Are the 'parts' for this or that recipe out there in adequate quantity to make investing in crafting skills/feats worthwhile? I know that some day I will be able to make that one Acid Flask, but I am not entirely certain that I won't get frustrated with my seemingly wasted skill points/feats by then.

And I realize, as I read somewhere on the forums in a thread regarding Brew Potion, that there is an RP side to every skill and feat I choose, and by extention to the crafting system, but am I wrong when I believe that the crafting system is out there so that players can create their own custom (to an extent) items without the need to request them from DMs?

I.E. I would like to make an Elixir of Eternal Beauty (that presumably isn't included into the current crafting system) using my Craft Alchemy skills (since 'actual' use of said skills is not very interesting/worthwhile). I would need a DM to authorize this RP use of my skill, and, if I succeed, make me said potion or at least make everyone know that I indeed possess said potion in case I decide to sell it and my customer doesn't believe that such potions are supposed to be invisible.

So, RP usage of crafting skills/feats only seems like extra work for the staff, therefore the 'actual' use of aformentioned skills and feats should be more appealing. That way people who decide to invest in crafting can RP doing stuff they can do IG instead of RPing doing stuff they can't do IG.

Another downside of the current system is the costs. I will not argue the costs of magical wearables, as crafting them seems cheaper (if only in gold) than buying them so far (I have limited access to areas and shops so I cannot be sure of the accuracy of my guess). But simpler things like aformentioned Acid Flask are simply not worth crafting, they are cheaper in stores, not to mention the effort spent on finding the components.

The complexity of recipes themselves is good, as is the need for various classes to create some of the higher end things. It encourages us to meet up and talk to each other, make acquaintances and RP as well as creates a mini-quest on its own right.

In short, the rates of finding things needs to be increased slightly.
The variety of final products needs to be increased.
The costs of certain final products need to be lowered.

In resume, the idea is great, but it still needs some changes. Knowing fully that the systems is a work in progress, I say you are doing a great job guys, but for now Okay is my vote.

[Minhyriath]

I think the crafting is really well done (congrats!) and has lots of potential, (here comes the but) but I just don't like the rate at which fatigue regenerates.

Even if it were 2/day instead I think that would make a big difference.

I agree with this. Even that way it would take 50 real-life days for it to fully go down, not to mention you would be stuck for weeks with crippling stat debuffs, which seems awfully unrealistic IC and ridiculous from an OOC viewpoint. I'd say one real-life week for the whole fatigue meter to go down would sound far more reasonable. If it's about limiting the traffic of powerful items, it should much rather be done with rarer materials than putting people off from crafting and even adventuring for weeks.

[Kaeldorn]

Recipe availability is done the way it is to keep the better stuff more rare, and thus worth more. That goes for non-magical equipment as well.

A 'simple' adamantine weapon is bordering on the high end as far as mundane crafting goes, and should not be easy to come by (alchemical silver and cold iron on the other hand are mostly possible to buy through stores). Balancing intentions certainly weren't aimed towards having mithral full plate with some awesome alchemical gold/adamantine weapon available to just anyone. And also not available to make for just any crafter. Being able to make something rare should be special.

As for the knowledge of making a certain weapon vs the knowledge of how to work a certain material, that's just not the way the recipe system works. A possible workaround would be to add recipes for weapon and armour types that first open a selection screen for choosing the material before initiating the crafting. However, that would result in an extreme value increase of learning how to work new materials (think in the 10-20k range for adamantine, gold and mithral armor and weapons). Which would make individual weapon/material combinations even harder to obtain, as well as a potential price increase for the actual crafting itself.

Could recipes be made possible to obtain otherwise, like through vendors? Possibly. Though, that would make the system shift towards gold farming. Rarity of recipes and resources is a better tool then, as far as I'm concerned.

As a final note: those three top-tier metals mentioned above are intended as obtainable for level 15-20(+) characters. Places like Mossdale should become more accessible once the level cap is increased. The idea is that you don't have to specifically go farm for them, but groups finding recipes they can't use or already have may sell them to other players.

[Kaeldorn]

I agree with this. Even that way it would take 50 real-life days for it to fully go down, not to mention you would be stuck for weeks with crippling stat debuffs, which seems awfully unrealistic IC and ridiculous from an OOC viewpoint. I'd say one real-life week for the whole fatigue meter to go down would sound far more reasonable. If it's about limiting the traffic of powerful items, it should much rather be done with rarer materials than putting people off from crafting and even adventuring for weeks.

You do not get any stat debuffs for as long as you remain under a level of 50 fatigue. The time it takes to replenish your fatigue level symbolizes the time it actually takes to make an item under normal circumstances including how long you can work on it before tiring out each day, because from an IC standpoint, the instant-finish on crafting makes no sense. It could be changed so that you don't actually get your item until that time is over and can't make anything else in the meantime. That would be realistic without requiring players to not be able to play for extended periods of time. However, it'd also be far more harsh of a limitation.

And yes, it's also about the traffic of powerful items. One week maximum to get your fatigue back to zero would kill its purpose of making things like +3 weapon enchantments hard to come by/valuable to craft. And then, the entire system might as well be removed. Making materials more rare would once again result in more farming. Should it really be required to constantly kill stuff to be a competitive crafter? I'd prefer if it weren't, personally..

Another downside of the current system is the costs. I will not argue the costs of magical wearables, as crafting them seems cheaper (if only in gold) than buying them so far (I have limited access to areas and shops so I cannot be sure of the accuracy of my guess). But simpler things like aformentioned Acid Flask are simply not worth crafting, they are cheaper in stores, not to mention the effort spent on finding the components.

Just to be sure.. but have you noticed that common Acid Flasks are made in stacks of 5? They're not that terribly expensive.

And more recipes are on the way.. I've been distracted with other things *cough* druids shapeshifting

[Subal]

I would most definetly agree, that Admantine axe's and such should not be made easly obtainable, they are not *Simple* as i put it, that was the wrong wording, my appologies there.

I was more meaning that it is simple too craft a axe , an axe is an axe, no matter which way you look at it. The thought behind it was, skills are needed for the material. The material is what warrents the skill not the actual build of the weapon. Building a weapon from any material should be the same as before. Cept how the (process of crafting the axe)

And actually i love the idea that you mentioned. Perhaps we must pay a dividend too learn The Material required. Not everyone would be able too become a apprentice for years of no pay and be just a simple crafter. Many would have too pay too learn the crafting art. Perhaps paying a specific amount too learn a new teir would work. there are very few crafters on sundren capable of making the very best things as it already is.
As an example, *only an example* take no offence skullcrushers.

If glorin found a plan too make admantine suit of armor, the skullcrushers would have an extreme advantage over everyone else, why? They are the only ones within 1000 miles who have a "plan" too craft it. I am quite sure with all the crafters in the cities surrounding it would be possible too learn how too make this armor, it may cost you a arm and a leg, but thats the way it works sometimes. You counter that into the cost, Thats just how metal working is. You want too be the best, you have too go through the shit. not randomly finding the very best on a creature in the middle of the woods, You go too school or on the job training.

hopefully im saying this in a constructive manner as too not hurt anyones feelings.

[Minhyriath]

You do not get any stat debuffs for as long as you remain under a level of 50 fatigue. The time it takes to replenish your fatigue level symbolizes the time it actually takes to make an item under normal circumstances including how long you can work on it before tiring out each day, because from an IC standpoint, the instant-finish on crafting makes no sense. It could be changed so that you don't actually get your item until that time is over and can't make anything else in the meantime. That would be realistic without requiring players to not be able to play for extended periods of time. However, it'd also be far more harsh of a limitation.

Alright, I see that... but several real-life weeks? Especially with the debuffs that seems awfully long.

[Subal]

As i was reading Kael i saw the part of not wanting too make people farm for cash, i understand this highly. i am just trying too throw out there other possiblities other then just, we find it or tough luck if no one else wants too sell it too you. Because then it has nothing too do with skill and all about luck of who finds the plans or schematics or whatever you wish too call it.

Luck is not really part of a craft, well some...Aclehmy can go boom! or i could burn my ass or crush a hand, so i think im probably wrong there lol.

But as for the actual ability of the craftsman, it has too do with skills and learning.

Perhaps a time table for learning, you must pay a dividend of 1000 gold per day, for three weeks and spend ingame time X ammount at the trainer, your time is kept , and at the end of the three weeks you gain the knowledge of how too work with whatever you requested.

[black hand]

I like how things are progressing so far, although I have run into a kink with Essences, since I have found a recipe or two that require radiant essences, but the only ones capeable of being bought are glowing and of lower power... I guess I have to wait for that random drop. Some components are rare as well, and those asking me for things end up on a wild goose chase for components that I do not have. I find the situation is similar to the old lady that swallowed a fly song which may take a simple request for something into a three week quest trying to find and refine what's needed in the end which then may lead into another problem in the way our characters trade with one another:

We have the trading post forum, and although I have come across advertisments of those I may wish to trade with and post here, sometimes it is a hit and miss on finding the person in the game. I am thinking when the crafting and mining becomes more heavily used, that there will be a problem with people wanting to connect to trade their goods, both raw and refined. I don't think many that frequent Sundren have the luxury of setting 'dates' or 'meets' as often as we would like since RL has a funny way of getting in the way as our online time is dictated by when we actually have free time between work and family, time zones, etc...

I have used the trading post to circumvent this a bit and can find some stuff that people sell, but not everyone wishes to sell to the post due to the standardized costs, and a server reboot will wipe she shop clean if I were to sell something there that I know a friend is wanting to pick up.

? Perhaps in the fullness of time, a trade-banking type of system that would allow the exchange of goods between characters may make things easier with the complexity of the new Sundren crafting system ?



*Edit* One thing I do like though, is that I've come across some recipies that require the Brew potions feat, and up until now, I had though me taking it was a waste mainly because the cost of making a simple potion is ridiculous compared to buying the same potion at a shop.

[Kaeldorn]

Alas, to find radiant essences or better, you will have to venture into 15+ areas. They are not very uncommon, they just require you to fight more dangerous enemies. Conversion recipes glowing->radiant do not exist. (to avoid people mass slaughtering bats to eventually create essences of epic proportions from).

The trade banking idea is nice.. however, that or an 'auction house' of sorts would also be a tremendous amount of work.

[Azulfae]

The exigo have a nice building that would serve as a great meeting place of tradesmen to exchange goods and recipies.

At the end of the day, what I want to know is, if I as a player set my sights on something can I work towards it or am I going to be an annoyance.

If the DM's don't want to help every player achieve the ends of making every item they require then surely a system that is not reliant on such should be in place.

[Kaeldorn]

I'm not sure what you're getting at there, Azulfae. Players don't have to rely on DM's to get all components to make an item. They're available in game without any help 'from above'. That said, you may not be able to deck yourself out with every piece of equipment of your dreams, or get your hands every single recipe out there that you might desire, but it's not reasonable to assume that you should...

Someone is bound to have that thing you wanted at some point, though. You or someone else. It's available, just not widely so.

[Deathevn]

Well, im not sure how to take my thoughts on this, but there is something I would like to toss out there. As far as characters who arnt crafters are considered, when you get to these high end areas, are high end componets included in random drops? Or is that something only a crafter will be able to get their hands on? To Clarify, Will I be able to find unrefined materials that I could (( for an excessive fee im sure )) have refined, and another fee to process it to an item I would like?

I understand this is somewhat.. grindy in theory, I am just wondering is this option out there, or should I start playing bodyguard in exchange for goods and materials?

Just trying to see if this sort of thing is in play, or is it something we are going to have to be striking deals over?