Update Released

[Saulus]

Well comments worded so dramatically above don't make me very receptive to open discussion, in fact I think the tone of your comments are steering things in the other direction...

I will consider making implosion affect a single target only.

[The Almight Red]

Of course a high level good cleric could do the same thing to a group of vampires as well... And "The Almighty Red"... you need to calm down a bit.

The Almight Red. No Y.

Also, I think the moral proclivities of said clerics aren't exactly important, given the current contention. As I said, do you really believe clerics need more power? Do they need a spell that is, quite frankly, the most powerful insta-death spell in the game, now?

I don't think claiming 'NWN1' is fair game, concerning the various other changes made. Take, for example, Create Greater Undead. That could be a whole topic in and of itself, a spell that has 0 resemblance to PnP or NWN1, but instead has been beefed to ludicrous degrees on this server.

Now, I understand this is a spell that's been on the server for a bit of time, as is. So, I don't take any hopes or allusions to the notion that arguing for a change will provide much productivity.

However, considering that Implosion was recently changed, hopefully open and honest dialogue could perhaps steer that particular spell to a more agreeable measure. Namely, one that doesn't make clerics even more powerful than they already are.

Because that's wholly unnecessary. Entirely. There is simply no reason to give clerics the most powerful insta-death spell in the game.

I honestly just don't see how claiming NWN1 is 'more hardcore' justifies what is clearly only an action that results in beefing up classes that are the last that need beefing up. You don't always follow NWN1 in your decisions. You don't always follow PnP in your decisions. I think this is a good scenario where you shouldn't.

[MadSeer]

In my opinion, I am a little wary of Implosion in this game getting around death ward. It is true that in real D&D, Implosion is not considered a death effect, and thus death ward does not stop it. The spell creates a destructive resonance in any corporeal target that causes them to collapses in on itself, like too much pressure being applied to something sinking under water. Anything with a structure can be effected, including constructs, noncorporeal undead, and the like. If it has a real body, it can be "crushed" in essence.

The reason I am wary is that in pnp, a spell of this magnitude of power only effects a single target, unlike our version which creates an small area of effect vortex that can knock out an entire group if it is standing close enough. The direct reading of the pnp spell says that it effects one target per round, for four rounds, and you cannot re-target someone who has already saved. This is significantly more balanced than an area of effect Implosion, plus subsequent rounds of Implosion must be concentrated on, meaning the caster is essentially casting single target Implosion each round for four rounds, and nothing else.

I think if we are going to keep it as a kill spell that gets around death wards and destroys undead and constructs, we should at least make it a single target spell. A spell like this also only makes clerics stronger in the end. I know we love to try and make things as close to pnp as possible around here, but I think there are some things that don't mesh very well with nwn2 in those regards.

Just my thoughts and opinions.

EDIT: I didn't know about the automatic +3 to DC in the spell. In that case we should definitely tweak this spell some more, or things could get really out of hand with our high level clerics and favored souls. =/

This.
I can already see a dozen non caster against a cleric getting killed in a round because the only defence they have against an area death spell with such a DC has been made obsolete.

Implosion shouldn't be countered by Death Ward, but it shouldn't be an area of effect either. If it remains AoE then Death Ward should stop it. If it's changed, then it should kill the target with or without Death Ward/Deathless Frenzy/Vampirism or any other instant death immunity.

[Saulus]

Of course a high level good cleric could do the same thing to a group of vampires as well... And "The Almighty Red"... you need to calm down a bit.

[Kaizen]

I wonder who will be the first to figure it out and make a cleric with a DC 35 Implosion.

Too late, Clive already runs this level of DC.

GG Paladins, it was a nice change of scene, too bad it had to end so soon.

[Kajae]

Funny, Implosion doesn't seem a very Priestly 'spell.'

I mean, when you imagine getting smote by a high-level Cleric, I wouldn't think of being imploded as the result. Getting struck by a thunderbolt, banished to the nether realms, impaled on the blade of an Avatar, or stomped on by a giant foot: now those would be proper smitings.

[The Almight Red]

Even if it's single target, I'd like to once again point out it'd be the most powerful insta-death spell available.

In the hands of clerics. Considering all the lovely Cleric/Favored Soul PrCs entered on this server, am I the only one that gets the feeling that they want people playing munchkin warmachines?

Prove me wrong, and get rid of this spell, or turn Death Ward back on. Or do something to significantly weaken it compared to Wail of the Banshee. Even single target vs. AoE makes very little difference when the latter can be auto-protected from with Death Ward.

I wonder who will be the first to figure it out and make a cleric with a DC 35 Implosion.

[Philosopher]

In my opinion, I am a little wary of Implosion in this game getting around death ward. It is true that in real D&D, Implosion is not considered a death effect, and thus death ward does not stop it. The spell creates a destructive resonance in any corporeal target that causes them to collapses in on itself, like too much pressure being applied to something sinking under water. Anything with a structure can be effected, including constructs, noncorporeal undead, and the like. If it has a real body, it can be "crushed" in essence.

The reason I am wary is that in pnp, a spell of this magnitude of power only effects a single target, unlike our version which creates an small area of effect vortex that can knock out an entire group if it is standing close enough. The direct reading of the pnp spell says that it effects one target per round, for four rounds, and you cannot re-target someone who has already saved. This is significantly more balanced than an area of effect Implosion, plus subsequent rounds of Implosion must be concentrated on, meaning the caster is essentially casting single target Implosion each round for four rounds, and nothing else.

I think if we are going to keep it as a kill spell that gets around death wards and destroys undead and constructs, we should at least make it a single target spell. A spell like this also only makes clerics stronger in the end. I know we love to try and make things as close to pnp as possible around here, but I think there are some things that don't mesh very well with nwn2 in those regards.

Just my thoughts and opinions.

EDIT: I didn't know about the automatic +3 to DC in the spell. In that case we should definitely tweak this spell some more, or things could get really out of hand with our high level clerics and favored souls. =/

[The Almight Red]

...why do I have the sinking impression Vraer and some of those Myrkulite vampire priests are going to start using Implosion in the near future? ^_^;

Oh, Vraer already started that. Even before this 'bug' was fixed, Death Ward didn't save you from a DM cast Implosion.

Question. Has the +3 increase to the DC on Implosion already been removed for this server? It'd certainly make sense to, considering it's entirely unnecessary.

I have to admit, it's pretty dumb that clerics have a more powerful form of insta-death than wizards, now. Wail of the Banshee is protected by Death Ward. Implosion is not. Wail of the Banshee is a straight Fortitude DC. Implosion is a Fortitude DC with +3 added onto it (been documented on official NWN2 forums, and tested by many people including myself).

Frankly, I'd say rip the spell out if you're going to do this. Do clerics really need more power than they already have?

C'mon.

At the very least, get rid of that automatic +3 to DC on Implosion, if it hasn't been done already.

[Saulus]

Are undead/vampires now also affected by Implosion?

Seeing as their immunity before was from death immunity, the same thing death ward provides... Yes.

[Kaizen]

Are undead/vampires now also affected by Implosion?

[Saulus]

Implosion would have been changed long ago if I knew death ward was providing immunity to it, and the Veritas are going to continue being tweaked.

People were massively farming the area and getting good XP from high CR but low stat NPCs.

The fact that there are so many prompt replies to the changes tells me it was indeed a popular farming destination.

[GodBeastX]

Lowest is always 5% on attack unless they have concealment.

[Zoberraz]

Seriously, the Veritas corporals have over AC 40?

Eww. I mean, Maia is a level 20 ranger, with a +3 to hit longbow, weapon focus and a +6 Dex modifier... so, her best is +30, or +22 if she's using Manyshot (ranged power attack equivalent, but multiple arrows instead of single-attack increased damage). Her odds to hit with her best attacks pretty much go from 50%/50%/25%/nil/nil or with Manyshot 10%/10%/nil/nil/nil.

If Maia is a level 20, I'd hate to think about how the characters whom were in the Veritas target audience (12-17) manage with that.

Also, in regards to Implosion, it would seem like the two real defenses remaining against it are greater resistance and spell mantles.

...why do I have the sinking impression Vraer and some of those Myrkulite vampire priests are going to start using Implosion in the near future? ^_^;

[MadSeer]

That's just the thought of a silly french canadian. But I just checked on the spell and figures it makes sense, since it's a "destructive resonance that makes a creature collapse on itself."
However, in NwN2, Implosion is a lot more powerful than in PnP and Death Ward might have it's place in warding against it. In PnP it's one creature per round, for a maximum of four rounds of concentration. In NwN2 it's instant death for every creature in the radius.