An Evil Presence

[Iso]

One thing I would be in favor of is something along the lines of what was suggested earlier. In P&P you can be sure the DM will let you roll up a new character at roughly the same level as your last that will blend right into the story. How about allowing characters (note: not just evil characters, but any character) that comes to an end in a well-played out way that furthers the enjoyment of everyone to return as a character 1 level below what they were? With a decent set of equipment to start out with of course. I'd still opt for only mutually consented deaths myself, but that at least should limit the drag of grinding your way up to a place where you can immediately be of influence with the people you often play with again. It should make taking risks of playing evil turn less people off, and the smart evil from day one is still going to take the reigns because they have lasting power while newcomers need to settle in first.

That might also lead to people with higher level characters being more ready to risk their lives on purpose, knowing they could start anew with no friends or enemies.

[Kaeldorn]

Limit it to once every two/three months at most per player and I don't think it's that much of a problem. From what I hear, the DM's were looking for a way for players to more willingly embrace death of their characters. Someone who legitimately wanted to sacrifice their character could do so without too much of a setback then, without being allowed constant suicide whenever things got icky. Another requirement could be that the death would need to be the result of a legitimate quarrel with another player, or a DM orchestrated event.

[CorneliusVonRichten]

I would offer up Sarah for that. Because I made to many mistakes during her character creation and now she is just a warrior with no social capacities whatsoever and because I am bored with her.

Limit it to once every two/three months at most per player and I don't think it's that much of a problem. From what I hear, the DM's were looking for a way for players to more willingly embrace death of their characters. Someone who legitimately wanted to sacrifice their character could do so without too much of a setback then, without being allowed constant suicide whenever things got icky. Another requirement could be that the death would need to be the result of a legitimate quarrel with another player, or a DM orchestrated event.

[Xeesheava]

Limit it to once every two/three months at most per player and I don't think it's that much of a problem. From what I hear, the DM's were looking for a way for players to more willingly embrace death of their characters. Someone who legitimately wanted to sacrifice their character could do so without too much of a setback then, without being allowed constant suicide whenever things got icky. Another requirement could be that the death would need to be the result of a legitimate quarrel with another player, or a DM orchestrated event.

That's a good idea Kaeldorn, I experienced a frustrating event with my old NWN1 char what I named in this same thread.
The DM wanted to do a Good vs. Evil war, but obviously he said "no permadeath", then when the battle started:

First Round: Good Wizard casted Disintegrate to me. Died.

The DM bended his "no permadeath" to "permadeath". So, I asked him a retribution for that, I mean, was a two years famous character, as a player I don't want to lose everything without having a backup.
The DM didn't gave me anything, so I lost everything and decided to quit.

The idea of one level below it's good because from a technical point, the character starts with the Cap on 5. Let's supose it's a Level 15 character and now It's a Level 14 character. His cap will rise to 15 in 9 weeks. So, he/she can use that 9 weeks to forge relationships, roleplay and such.

[Urithrand]

I would offer up Sarah for that. Because I made to many mistakes during her character creation and now she is just a warrior with no social capacities whatsoever and because I am bored with her.

Sorry to pick on you again Corn, but this is precisely why this is a terrible idea. People cannot remake a new level 14 character just because they are bored with / messed up / get frustrated with their existing character. It's not fair, it's not logical and it's not Sundren.

[Phantom Lamb]

This has gone way way off-topic. Please, do not discuss permadeath or I'll shut down the thread.

I like the open discourse this has developed into. But, no offense to anyone here, but your personal view on permadeath has no bearing on how Sundren uses it. And Sundren uses it rarely anyway.

[Arlock Starwind]

I gatta admit I would not be surprised if we have an all out war soon over losing char and then the dm's will be swamped. on the other hand someone can rak up major rep.. perm deaths 2-3 months per person.. awesome.

Count Arlock in.. ( I misspelled his last name during tryouts when i first started anyway.. ouch.)

[Phantom Lamb]

Talking about perma is fine in this light, so long as it doesn't tread into the specific rules on Sundren, how it should be in your eyes, etc.

Arlock's post kinda highlights one of the trends I mentioned in the beginning. Players who play good guys tend to hate permadeath. Players on the evil side tend not to care. It's OK to like or dislike it, but what these trends result in, on a persistant world where permadeath is infrequent, is lots of high level good guys and low level evils.

I'll talk to the staff and think of other ways to address our need for more evil PC's. I'll be checking in on the thread for fun, but it's grown into TLDR.

[c2k]

Perhaps evil characters that are excellent should be allowed to escape permadeath situations(I'm talking about the DM event variety) in the same way good guys do.

Look at Bane, he died during the time of troubles, but years later with the help of his followers, he was reborn. Now of course he is a deity, but why can't that happen to to characters in high magic Faerun(well, Sundren region is low magic, but many places in Faerun thrive on it).

Perhaps other characters partake quests, may collect the remains of said character, and perhaps they do it for another goal, but it brings an Evil PC back to be a thorn in everyone's side.

Of course, this would be reserved to the best villains on the server, and thats something the DMs would decide.

[Phantom Lamb]

Most permadeath comes about when the PLAYER decides he wants to die. Biddle, for example, did not HAVE to permadeath himself. He decided it made sense, since he was disintegrated.

Most good characters would never do that. Hence, the level disparity.

The DM staff generally gives everyone a "get out of jail free card" already, no matter the alignment. But don't expect it, you never know.

[Kaeldorn]

Arlock's post kinda highlights one of the trends I mentioned in the beginning. Players who play good guys tend to hate permadeath. Players on the evil side tend not to care. It's OK to like or dislike it, but what these trends result in, on a persistant world where permadeath is infrequent, is lots of high level good guys and low level evils.

That's exactly why I made my previous suggestion..
- Good guys may be more inclined to have their PC die and start a new character. Emphasis on new, not a remake
- Evil guys won't stay low level when they give their character up, and simply progress in levels just like the people who keep their characters

Is it really so terrible that a few people who aren't enjoying their current character might make limited use of it to play a character they think they will enjoy? And why is it so different from your own proposal to give suicidal evils free levelling when they make a new character, except that suggestion still wouldn't give goody goody players any incentive to embrace a permanent death? Not to mention yet that it would be unequal treatment of the player base.

[Phantom Lamb]

K well, I'm checking out of this thread. Enjoy the ramblings

[Product of Void]

Free levels is just a plain bad idea, its easy to abuse. Though in a spirit to be helpful the best idea I can think of is perhaps XP for RP stories. Its a typical "Give and Get" thing like all things in life a little work means a little reward.

Perma just forget about it. Some players might want to perma their charactors, might consider it good rp, others might not. I am not going to be the jackass to tell others how to rp their charactor.

In PnP evil dies good wins and we all get drunk at the tavern. In a PW evil slaughters a vilage has a trail, gets excuted then a week later is seen walking around town.

My view is its great to have things happen to change a charactor, long as it doesn't punish the player. Its kinda a reward for good RP.

Few ideas for punishment for evil being caught.

Mark of Justice - yes you were evil, yes you did bad. But darn you have done some good perhaps with a mark not allowing you to do ill deeds in town will finally show you the path of good.

Mark of Truth - Perhaps your evil is due to an inablity to rationalize truth. None truly know your intentions due to so many lies. So now you will be unable to speak anything but the truth.

Helpful heart mark - While what you did was wrong it was also seen as a lack of compassion so now you will help when ever asked.

Like the halfing in order of the stick could have cool side effects if they fight or go against their mark. Perhaps only works in town.

Make sense now?

[Kaeldorn]

Makes sense, but it would only turn all evil characters into neutral/good characters eventually or at least stop them from taking evil action. So it wouldn't help reaching the desired goal. The contrary, actually :/

[Urithrand]

I am not going to be the jackass to tell others how to rp their charactor.

Mark of Justice - yes you were evil, yes you did bad. But darn you have done some good perhaps with a mark not allowing you to do ill deeds in town will finally show you the path of good.

Mark of Truth - Perhaps your evil is due to an inablity to rationalize truth. None truly know your intentions due to so many lies. So now you will be unable to speak anything but the truth.

Helpful heart mark - While what you did was wrong it was also seen as a lack of compassion so now you will help when ever asked.

So you won't tell people how to play their character unless it's IC... then you'll force them to behave in a certain way?

This thread has gone as far as it's going. We're not changing rules about permadeath, and we're not going to level new characters to level 14, no matter how high the player's previous character was. It's a shame that people expect changes like this just to make them play an evil character.

When you consider the most famous characters that Sundren has ever had, who do you think of? Braghuru? Samantha? Duerric? Neradnal? These characters were built as true evil from the very beginning, and they all struggled along with the rules exactly as they are now. I myself worked an evil wizard from level 3 just like the rest of them.

We shouldn't have to make special dispensation for people to play evil. And the next person who makes a disparaging comment about perma-death may just look down the barrel at it themselves. Your character is not immortal. Your character is not invulnerable. Your character is not perfect. It can die. Perma-death is not up for debate.