CSO: Sneak Peek

[Kaeldorn]

With rare resources being included (emphasis on rare, as in truly limited supply), I beg to differ. It's hardly free if it can't be farmed, which will be even more true when the stacking con penalty on gathering metals, gems and wood starts to kick in. Because then another factor starts becoming part of the price:

Time.

[joker]

OK, I can see the loss of experience. I have a new question though. If the new enchantment process is going to involve everyone in the party, will everyone in the party lose some experience? It would not be right for just the spellcaster to lose the experience.

[Thief Of Navarre]

As far as I see in my limited scope we have little enough experience with most of our characters as it is... losing levels through crafting is one hell of a price to pay!

I know for one that just casting keen edge and slaughtering a whole country is better than loosing a level just to 'have' said spell on a weapon! Come on seriously when you can have Extend spell at third level and cast persistant spells at higher level the concept of crafting will quickly be left behind! Expect a lot of wizard multiclasses

[joker]

Yes, but not everyone is a spellcaster. I for one don't like playing a mage or priest. So, casting the spell every day is out of the question. However, I love the idea of the socketable gems. Then you might need me to take them out of items, since I do like playing rogue/ranger multiclass characters.

[Kaeldorn]

As far as I see in my limited scope we have little enough experience with most of our characters as it is... losing levels through crafting is one hell of a price to pay!

I know for one that just casting keen edge and slaughtering a whole country is better than loosing a level just to 'have' said spell on a weapon! Come on seriously when you can have Extend spell at third level and cast persistant spells at higher level the concept of crafting will quickly be left behind! Expect a lot of wizard multiclasses

That has been exactly my worry. A permanent loss of xp discourages the enchanter from doing any of his trade for anyone else, which will either end with everyone making some alt take care of enchantments for themselves (or make exchange arrangements with another player who does the same thing), or a huge influx of self-buffing classes. In a low magic world, I might add.

While it's not an unofficial D&D rule to charge experience, in real D&D it's relatively fairly gained back when you constantly have a DM to participate with in stories. Not so on Sundren. I'd even go so far to say that people in specific time zones would have more viability to make an enchanting character at all, due to the current spread of active DMs and the times at which they run most of their events.

I know there is currently an issue that enchanting gives too much power for too little cost. But I believe that can be done away with without making players feel permanently OOCly penalized for participating in crafting. For instance, a way to gradually get the lost xp back that is unavailable to non-enchanters sounds fair. I want to see my stuff used, dammit!

Just to clarify, as it stands I will include the penalty as planned, even though I don't openly support the idea, so to speak...

OK, I can see the loss of experience. I have a new question though. If the new enchantment process is going to involve everyone in the party, will everyone in the party lose some experience? It would not be right for just the spellcaster to lose the experience.

Not going to happen, as it's a potential cause of grief and arguing between players.

[Product of Void]

Umm? so xp loss in crafting or not?

I would much rather a Gold loss instead of xp. Seeing after a set level xp becomes a finite variable only increased with dm rewards. While Gold is infinte seeing its always attianable.

Heck a temopary con loss maybe a slow effect for RL 24 hours is better then loosing xp.

[Azulfae]

I have seen the arguments for and against XP loss for crafting many many times and it is a really awkward topic. There are some major arguments for and some major arguments against.

Would it be possible to have a system whereby there is an amount of xp loss calculated regarding how difficult the item is to make/enchant. Some calculation based on the DC to make the item.

Then dependant on the characters skill in crafting or their level of ability or whatever roll is required to beat the DC to create the item, the character can reduce the amount of XP by a factor generated by however much they beat the DC by.

This way, when a crafter is making something that is challenging for his level or how experienced a crafter he is, the challenge of crafting will be more draining but at higher levels/greater talent and experience of crafting, the loss on the more basic items could be less or even near nothing. Yet at this higher level of experience you would be capable of crafting greater things which would in turn be a greater drain on XP.

It would likely mean a lot of scripts and such but it would mean more experienced and dedicated crafters would suffer less for the amount of time and feat/skill point dedication put into their trade.

e.g. an 100 year old dwarven blacksmith who has crafted a thousand masterworked suits of iron full plate in his time and has extensive experience working with mithril/gold/adamantine etc, is gonna churn out a basic suit of armour with far less strain and effort than his whispy bearded grandson who is working on his first ever suit of banded mail.

[Sweet Spirit]

I have seen the arguments for and against XP loss for crafting many many times and it is a really awkward topic. There are some major arguments for and some major arguments against.

Would it be possible to have a system whereby there is an amount of xp loss calculated regarding how difficult the item is to make/enchant. Some calculation based on the DC to make the item.

Then dependant on the characters skill in crafting or their level of ability or whatever roll is required to beat the DC to create the item, the character can reduce the amount of XP by a factor generated by however much they beat the DC by.

This way, when a crafter is making something that is challenging for his level or how experienced a crafter he is, the challenge of crafting will be more draining but at higher levels/greater talent and experience of crafting, the loss on the more basic items could be less or even near nothing. Yet at this higher level of experience you would be capable of crafting greater things which would in turn be a greater drain on XP.

It would likely mean a lot of scripts and such but it would mean more experienced and dedicated crafters would suffer less for the amount of time and feat/skill point dedication put into their trade.

e.g. an 100 year old dwarven blacksmith who has crafted a thousand masterworked suits of iron full plate in his time and has extensive experience working with mithril/gold/adamantine etc, is gonna churn out a basic suit of armour with far less strain and effort than his whispy bearded grandson who is working on his first ever suit of banded mail.

Thats a perfectly good suggestion in my opinoin so long as it is not such a pain that nobody would wish to script it down. Otherwise it is perfect in my eyes ^_^

Also, I'm in favor of the exp loss. Just because you have trouble getting past level 15 doesn't mean its the end of the world if it gets harder - be content you reached fifteen at all. I can see where everyone is getting anxious from =p

Great job though Kael
!!!! ^_^

[Kaeldorn]

I like your suggestion Azulfae, it makes things at least a little more fair. And you're wrong.. it's ridiculously easy to script that. Although I didn't actually consider using a check for enchanting as it works on spell levels rather than skill ratings. It's easily possible just the same, but it does sort of kill the idea behind caster level = spell power.

[Verideth]

2 cents

Saulus, Kaeldorn and the rest of the staff.

Just wanted to say thanks.

Exp loss, coin loss, what not. Your time is appreciated by me.

Happy Holidays!

[Xeesheava]

Im agree with the system and gold and XP lost.

Why?

1. It's not free
2. It's not an only way XP up system.
3. Makes crafting an special thing only for certain users.
4. You can always recover that XP roleplaying and getting the XP bonus.

Using the CNR in my first played PW of NWN1 I leveled up from 1 to 11 only crafting armors (Got XP for molding the ingot and XP for crafting the armor) with a risk of 0 to die. And I was a Paladin.

Some things to think (for Kaeldorn):

1. Avoid the level down, if the crafting have 1000 XP cost and the character have 999 XP, he/she can't do it.
2. Most common minerals must be on safe areas.

[Janus]

First and foremost, Nice system! Very good work I really can't wait to have a play with it. Unfortunately It will have to be after Mossdale comes in as I capped out ages ago and can't get Imbue Material

Secondly I'd be interested in who here actually plays a crafter.

Thirdly, from the position of a level capped crafter I think XP loss would be very harsh. I'd certainly have to have an extremely good reason for crafting as XP is extremely hard to get after you Cap.

Etria's concept is that of an 'Elven Smith' (Think a female Celebrimbor from Lord Of The Rings). I like playing her because she can make things for people and in truth it is only my desire to help with maintaining the magic level of the world that makes me charge anything at all for crafting. XP loss would detract substantially from my enjoyment and thus make me less likely to use that character and the crafting system.

I disagree that money is a worthless currency, it is simply that crafting is FAR too cheap.

Setting a cost to crafting items in the same way that wands and scrolls cost money to make would help significantly.

If it costs 100 000 gold to make a +3 sword they are going to start being extremely rare (as they should be) but people can and very likely will save up for them. They will become what they should be, a once in a lifetime buy.

[Thief Of Navarre]

Looks like this is going to be interesting

I for one am looking forward to seeing how this works!

[Azulfae]

Crafting has a cost, the players who have PC's who craft will have to make those PC's a priority for general gaming aswell as being just a mule to churn out items because otherwise they will never gain XP and level up and become better crafters.

This in general is going to prevent us all from simply having one main PC that has all the great feats and skill and then another one on the side that just makes things for friends.

The thing that will effect price of items in the end is how many crafters there are on the server. If there is only one or two then we will all be paying up to our necks for basic gear and having to wait forever for it.

I'd love to see a real player base economy develop around crafting, i have seen this in the past and it's amasing all the jobs and roles people have to fill. The politics that develops too can be awsome.

[Peridan]

Az, just because you have a crafting feat or two does not mean your character becomes a mule. They can be regular characters with a focus on one or maybe two crafting options, such as armor and weapon smithing and weapon enchantments (craft magic arms).

As far as having one character to run around adventuring, and the other "muling" items, that's just silly. RP is the main focus, not just having a great set of feats and skills focused on combat. You can do both.

And remember, the DM's have a hand in the economy and prices. Crafters cannot charge higher or lower than a general price as it is right now. They cannot charge 500 stags for an enchanted flaming longsword just because someone is their buddy. However, by the same token they cannot charge 50,000 stags for the same sword, because the DM's wish to keep the server low magic. Crafters are encouraged to make something hard to get, but still make it gettable.

And with the new system in place, there will be a lot more people having specific sets of skills and trading with each other to widen the current economy (which is practically nill as it is) and create something like you're talking about.