Moved Posts: Responsible Use of Stealth in RP

[nickbeat]

Please don't make assumptions about personal intent or motivation. We are all just trying to acquire consensus on this issue. I personally have both a level 9 and 14 rogue on the server as well as a ranger that is most adept at hiding as well. So yes I am quiet familiar with playing a rogue.

Nothing really needs to change in the game mechanics here, people just need to agree on acceptable use during RP.

[Phantom Lamb]

Play nice please, Anony.

[AnonyD99]

Play nice please, Anony.

Im just saying. Everyday im getting bit at and being told how to use my stealth. And I am "playing nice"

[MKartMaster]

You would have to read the 3.5 D&D rules to understand this more clearly. HIDE in this case refers to the game mechanics associated with the HIDE skill, which normally do not allow a character to use the skill while being observed.

The HiPS ability lets someone ignore this rule and allow them to be essentially invisible for the moment that they slink off into the shadows. Something like this can also be done using the bluff skill actually, like a magician with a cape.

I'm talking about PnP rules here, which vary greatly from NWN and Sundren. What rules are defined for Sundren are entirely up to the DMs and between players in RP. It does seem the general consensus is that COVER is required to continue hiding, though an official statement from Saulus would seal this debate.

PnP, eh? Hide in Plain Sight ability.

Hide in Plain Sight (Su)

A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

Hide (Dex; Armor Check Penalty)

Check

Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.
A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Hide checks depending on its size category: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large -4, Huge -8, Gargantuan -12, Colossal -16.
You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.
If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.
If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a -10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Sniping

If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.
Creating a Diversion to Hide

You can use Bluff to help you hide. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you.

Red emphasis is mine.

Note that HiPS allows you to hide while being observed (part 1) and without something to hide behind (part 2), however, part 2 is qualified with the statement "as long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow," which is further qualified by the statement "She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow."

Taken together, this means that the HiPS ability obviates the need for distraction in all cases (as per part 1; note that this might not actually be all that useful, since they will still know where you disappeared at), as well as the need to have cover or concealment (as per part 2) when within 10 feet of a shadow that does not belong to the shadowdancer herself. By RAW (Rules as Written), a shadowdancer could hide in an open field, since the grass will in fact be casting shadow(s).

Most importantly, notice what type of ability HiPS is. It's (Su). What does that mean? IT'S FREAKING MAGIC.

[sharringtonm]

Huh, interesting look at it Anony.

Were you aware???????

In NWN2 Spot checks happen only when a person enters perception range? There is no timer for repeat checks?

In NWN2 Listen checks only happen when a person changes position while in perception range? There is not timer for repeat checks?

Lots of people think they "spot" a rogue, when most often they "hear" the rogue and get the black shadow. Many people don't realize this is not spotting the rogue.

PS, sitting, turning in place, etc counts as moving and will trigger a listen check.

In NWN2 there is no autofail/ autosuccess on stealth? If your hide skill is 21 points higher then someone else's they CANNOT see you no matter what they roll.

There are only 2 rolls that have auto pass/fail conditions. Attacks and Saves.


Again this is NWN2, I'm not talking about PNP.
(There is an exception to this, if the area your in has an adjustment to listen/spot, then it will alter according to this and it won't tell the player this, as it effects the stealth model and not the actual skills reported on the PC. You can actually spot someone with 21 points higher then you in this one exception)

You have to RUN to the other corner of the map just to re stealth if you dont have HIPS then WALK all the way back stealthed.

Wrong.
Any Placeable that blocks line of sight will allow you to stealth behind it against anyone that has their LOS blocked by it.
A good example is the wagon next to the fire at Exigo. It blocks LOS. you can walk behind it, stealth and walk back out and be invisible. I've personally tested this in the past, its a fact.

I also have heard about a rumor where DEVs plan to make it so that you are forced out of stealth when you talk? Bleh that has SO MANY flaws. What about simple emotes and such wont that end up makeing us reveal ourselves? Especially since if I find a stealthy way to move from one cover to another people DEMAND that I emote it and then of course With the supposed script Id still be forced out of stealth. ~Tell me if im wrong someone tipped me that this may be in the works.

We'll lets see, the only person that has ever said anything about this ... was ME.
Here: http://www.sundren.org/forum/showpos...8&postcount=31
I said

Hell maybe Saulus can code something so that if you speak it breaks stealth. I'm pretty sure I've seen the script this could be done in.

No where did I say it would be done, nor did I say anyone would look into it. Nor am I in a postiojn where I could even make it done.

And once the Devs start handing out spot/listen + check gear like candy?

Another Fact you've been told I assume?



And now for the trump card:

The only people that are really against this or that or are very heavily against it and picky are the folks that dont play rogues on the server. And hell when I do whatever I still get bit at by the non rogues. I end up giveing a good explanation on each cover i use sometimes to others. Folks are just too bitey and wont accept haveing a rogue actually useing his stealth well once in a while.

Inflammatory, aggressive, and insulting to anyone that doesn't play a rogue. Congrats. You just locked a thread.

[Phantom Lamb]

Keep in mind regarding Shadowdancers, you can ATTEMPT to hide with shadow nearby, but how much cover does the shadow give if it's not large enough? Not much. Modifiers applied obviously if you're using grass blades :P