Moved Posts: Responsible Use of Stealth in RP

[me_less]

Sean,
You beat me to it, but considering that you're a DEV, you add even more weight to what I would've said. (and I think you said it better than I would've).

Chupa,
I love the youtube posting. Funny!

Nickbeat,
I really wish you didn't bring up the word Smegma. I looked it up and I REALLY wish I didn't. :P


Again though, to re-iterate. One would practically have to build a character specifically to counter uber sneakers (Marrs has a WHAT in move silently/hiding???). Even if there was an even amount of spot/listen vs hide/move silently items (and I personally think there should be), you still have to have it a class skill, max it out, have a high wisdom, and maybe even spend a feat or two to counter a pure sneaker.

In other words, if you REALLY don't want to be seen, you won't be most of the time since most people won't or can build against it. BUT I think it still needs to be possible.

And I want to bump Sean's pointers on responsible sneaking. I think I'll put that on the Wiki...

[Gevaudan]

((Stealther's Responsible RPing))
Do not stealth and stand right next to, in front of or behind a person. We all know its unrealistic. If your going to do it, take cover, laydown in the grass, etc.
Do not walk up to someone stealthed, stands next to them and start talking out of thin air. That person will be on my permanent ignore RP list forever. Talking should break stealth. (At the very least it should make everyone in earshot 'hear' you if not spot you) Hell maybe Saulus can code something so that if you speak it breaks stealth. I'm pretty sure I've seen the script this could be done in.
And don't say "I don't do that" cause I've seen 3 different people do it in this last week alone.

A certain person who shall remain nameless was even stealthed right beside everyone talking a few days ago and when questioned about it he/she said "Just RP you can see me" in OOC. When asked further why he/she didn't turn off stealth he/she said cause his faction settings have him/her kill on sight to some NPCs.

Well seems to me that if that was the case he/she shouldn't have been RPing standing visible by the fire should they? If the NPCs in the area were set to kill on sight then that character shouldn't be in the area visible at all ... game mechanics or RP-wise.

Just my 2 cents. I think I'm just going to take Sean's view on this one and perma-ignore anyone who stealthes out in the open, or worse yet stealthes and talks.

[JuneyGnomey]

I agree that all that all that is needed is a little responsibility and common sense on the part of sneaky characters. Anything that's an obvious abuse of mechanics should be avoided, as should anything that rattles your immersion in the game world or simply shatters suspension of disbelief (such as somebody stealthed while whispering into your character's ear...)

I realise that FR is a high-magic fantasy setting, but that doesn't mean one should check their common sense at the door where simple things such as line of sight and hiding in shadows are concerned.

[Urithrand]

In all honesty I have a slightly different view on stealth to others. As far as I'm concerned, what the hell is the point in having 20 skill points in stealth skills if you still have to duck down behind a barrel to not be seen? My character with no hide skill at all could do that! The rogue hide skill has far more skillful, almost supernatural ability than this, they are able to hide on the underside of a wagon and throw their voice so no-one knows where they are hiding, or hide in the most oscure, unlikely places and still not be seen. This rogue has invested valuable skill-points, something they can only use once then they are gone forever. It's like saying a mage can't use magic missile or a cleric can't heal because it provides an unfair advantage to them. Rogues have spent their lives developing ways to not be noticed, and stealth doesn't necessarily mean "out of sight" but "out of mind" a lot of the time. Rogues don't just hide when they use stealth, they can also adopt an air of boringness so no-one wants to pay attention to them, achieving the same goal.

Also to anyone who is arguing that the "Hide in Plain Sight" feat does not mean they can jump into hiding in full view of someone is obviously not particularly good at speaking English. It's hiding in PLAIN SIGHT. As in right where they can be seen. Or am I not understanding my own language properly?

Having said that, standing right in the open right next to someone and having a full-blown conversation is just silly. Stealth is used to not be noticed. Don't then draw attention to yourself.

[Dune]

Also to anyone who is arguing that the "Hide in Plain Sight" feat does not mean they can jump into hiding in full view of someone is obviously not particularly good at speaking English. It's hiding in PLAIN SIGHT. As in right where they can be seen. Or am I not understanding my own language properly?

HiPS means even if someone is carefully watching you, it is possible to just disappear right before them. Obviously realistically, the person performing HiPS would have to get behind something while they use thier ability, but because of games mechanics, they can just disappear before you.

Also, as Sharrington said, you can't see someone in stealth unless you use a certain spell or have an over-powering spot. I think that quite sums up it all.

Do not stealth and stand right next to, in front of or behind a person. We all know its unrealistic. If your going to do it, take cover, laydown in the grass, etc.

Yeah, standing infront of someone and thinking because they don't have a spot roll to beat your hide ect, your standing infront of them. Unless thier blind, there going to see you.

[Gevaudan]

In all honesty I have a slightly different view on stealth to others. As far as I'm concerned, what the hell is the point in having 20 skill points in stealth skills if you still have to duck down behind a barrel to not be seen? My character with no hide skill at all could do that! The rogue hide skill has far more skillful, almost supernatural ability than this, they are able to hide on the underside of a wagon and throw their voice so no-one knows where they are hiding, or hide in the most oscure, unlikely places and still not be seen. This rogue has invested valuable skill-points, something they can only use once then they are gone forever. It's like saying a mage can't use magic missile or a cleric can't heal because it provides an unfair advantage to them. Rogues have spent their lives developing ways to not be noticed, and stealth doesn't necessarily mean "out of sight" but "out of mind" a lot of the time. Rogues don't just hide when they use stealth, they can also adopt an air of boringness so no-one wants to pay attention to them, achieving the same goal.

Most of us aren't taking about hiding under a wagon here, you want to hide under a wagon and throw your voice walk over to the wagon and stand beside it while stealth than do something like this ...

*throws his voice to behind the tree* Hey over here!

We are talking about people walking right beside someone with NOTHING to cover them at all and saying they are stealthed. Or doing the above AND talking and saying their stealthed. No matter how much training someone has had in being stealthy and hidden they still need cover of somekind.

I picture stealth ability similar to what you see from Sam Fisher in the Splinter Cell games, straddling high places to stay out of view, hanging off ledges etc. Or even how Solid Snake does it with camo and other such stuff.

Nobody is saying Rogue's aren't better at hiding than normal person, sure anybody can hide behind a tree but only a rogue could do it, have someone look right at them, and still make them think they aren't there. Anybody else is gonna be spotted as soon as someone looks at them.

[Ebannon]

A certain person who shall remain nameless was even stealthed right beside everyone talking a few days ago and when questioned about it he/she said "Just RP you can see me" in OOC. When asked further why he/she didn't turn off stealth he/she said cause his faction settings have him/her kill on sight to some NPCs.

Well seems to me that if that was the case he/she shouldn't have been RPing standing visible by the fire should they? If the NPCs in the area were set to kill on sight then that character shouldn't be in the area visible at all ... game mechanics or RP-wise.

Just my 2 cents. I think I'm just going to take Sean's view on this one and perma-ignore anyone who stealthes out in the open, or worse yet stealthes and talks.

Hide in Plain Sight (Su): At 8th level, an assassin can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, an assassin can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind.


http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Assassin
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm

Edit: I don't want to "rules lawyer" this, so if the server rules are different, I'll respect them.

[nickbeat]

I think the confusion lies in where the hiding place is in this case.

I've always interpreted that HiPS allows the shadowdancer to move into the shadows to hide, not simply hide in place. They are then restricted to hide in places that are covered in shadow. Thus one could not hide right next to the fire at the Exigo for instance, but under the cart would work.

If the character doesn't have HiPS at all then they must move under the wagon while nobody is watching and remain there. They can't move out of cover and move to another place without triggering a spot check.

Of course in the game they can run around and dance around the fire all day and stay invisible. This is NOT possible ever in PnP, and I hope that stealthers will RP this accordingly. As I general rule, I always remain at some distance while stealthing in CvC, until ready to strike of course.

[Konchuu]

In all honesty I have a slightly different view on stealth to others. As far as I'm concerned, what the hell is the point in having 20 skill points in stealth skills if you still have to duck down behind a barrel to not be seen? My character with no hide skill at all could do that! The rogue hide skill has far more skillful, almost supernatural ability than this, they are able to hide on the underside of a wagon and throw their voice so no-one knows where they are hiding, or hide in the most oscure, unlikely places and still not be seen. This rogue has invested valuable skill-points, something they can only use once then they are gone forever. It's like saying a mage can't use magic missile or a cleric can't heal because it provides an unfair advantage to them. Rogues have spent their lives developing ways to not be noticed, and stealth doesn't necessarily mean "out of sight" but "out of mind" a lot of the time. Rogues don't just hide when they use stealth, they can also adopt an air of boringness so no-one wants to pay attention to them, achieving the same goal.

Also to anyone who is arguing that the "Hide in Plain Sight" feat does not mean they can jump into hiding in full view of someone is obviously not particularly good at speaking English. It's hiding in PLAIN SIGHT. As in right where they can be seen. Or am I not understanding my own language properly?

Having said that, standing right in the open right next to someone and having a full-blown conversation is just silly. Stealth is used to not be noticed. Don't then draw attention to yourself.

I agree to a 100% with this. I was thinking of writing something similar but seeing as I play a character that rely heavily on stealth I was concerned it would not be considered impartial.

[Sweet Spirit]

You people are way more mature than other communities though, i've seen people throw many-a-insults to people about this topic. You guys have done practically none of it. Great job ^.^

Onto the topic of the hiding ability. I believe that the 'Hide' ability is the ability to remain silent, supress every single thing that would tend to give you away [[like hiding behind, say, something that is smaller than you. You can sort of 'pretend' to make it look bigger, when actually its your shoulders and arms they see ;o]]. This is the skill of hide, I believe. I'm sure there are other tricks, like hiding in grass, but there should be a limit to this.

Move Silently is probably exactly what it says, eventually you get so skilled you can be traversing past broken glass and you don't make any noise [[unless you mess up, which in all possibility is very possible.]]

Now ON TOPIC, These two abilities don't give anyone the right to talk right next to someone, or to hide in open sight or other such things... But it does make them much more skilled at staying unseen and out of mind when behind 'iffy' cover or moving past particularly 'noisy' terrain. [[unless they use magic to 'throw' their voice somewhere else, or have some gadget to do so. But thats another topic.]]

Also, I saw that HiPS was brought up as well. I've always believed that Shadowdancers should -NOT- get HiPS in first level, but more like in the middle/end of its progression or gradually get HiPS. I believe the feat Hide in Plain Sight is the ability to litterly, mystically traverse half into the shadow plane and the material plane when there is sufficient shadow present. This means that they can sufficiently dissapear right in front of someone, so long that there are shadows to litterly meld into [[that are not further away than like 0.5 yards or less :3]]. If that person casted, say, a light spell, then they would be seen, unless they went to cover. Or if they had a item that generates light. Of course, we all know thats not in the game mechanics, but I think thats how it works ICly.

Oh yeah! I also think that people that dedicate themselves to stealth should be very hard to see so long as they roleplay it wrong. Stealth is much, much more using your wit and intelligence than it is your grace, it takes a good deal of grace.

I hope my post was alright and made sense ^.^

[nickbeat]

Yes HiPS lets them hide, but technically they need to move to cover to remain hidden. It lets them take the HIDE action to HIDE while IN PLAIN SITE and then move OUT of PLAIN SITE.

NWN is buggy in so many ways, and it just can't account for all the subtlety of Role Play. D&D was designed to be arbitrated by a DM, and it gets muddy when players try to effect realistic RP cooperatively.

I still find it odd that players we can see invisible players but not stealthed ones.

[Ebannon]

Yes HiPs lets them hide, but technically they need to move to cover to remain hidden. It lets them take the HIDE action to HIDE while IN PLAIN SITE and then move OUT of PLAIN SITE.

I don't see how the phrase, "... can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind." Means they need to move behind something... it appears to mean the exact opposite.

[Phantom Lamb]

Keep in mind, they would need shadows, which would be counted as their "cover." Same really goes for Shadowdancers. We all want to make superheroes, and I've heard the "I'm ducking into the shadow plane!" line as justification more times than I care to repeat, but reasonably-sized shadows need to be considered for both classes.

[nickbeat]

I don't see how the phrase, "... can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind." Means they need to move behind something... it appears to mean the exact opposite.

You would have to read the 3.5 D&D rules to understand this more clearly. HIDE in this case refers to the game mechanics associated with the HIDE skill, which normally do not allow a character to use the skill while being observed.

The HiPS ability lets someone ignore this rule and allow them to be essentially invisible for the moment that they slink off into the shadows. Something like this can also be done using the bluff skill actually, like a magician with a cape.

I'm talking about PnP rules here, which vary greatly from NWN and Sundren. What rules are defined for Sundren are entirely up to the DMs and between players in RP. It does seem the general consensus is that COVER is required to continue hiding, though an official statement from Saulus would seal this debate.

[AnonyD99]

The only people that are really against this or that or are very heavily against it and picky are the folks that dont play rogues on the server. And hell when I do whatever I still get bit at by the non rogues. I end up giveing a good explanation on each cover i use sometimes to others. Folks are just too bitey and wont accept haveing a rogue actually useing his stealth well once in a while. I just end up not careing about folks complaints on wheter or not im useing cover 24/7. And the fact is. Lets say no one is LOOKING your way. Yet they see you in the game. You cant stealth and not be seen game mechanics wise. You have to RUN to the other corner of the map just to re stealth if you dont have HIPS then WALK all the way back stealthed. Just to take place in your cover with the Game Mechanics backing you up. Sometimes we just dont want to run to the corner of exigo just to re stealth. Any other way folks are going to say " I saw you at the corner of my eye" or "Bleh thats not a good cover" Hell I cant go to behind the wagon where no ones looking and sneak under. Its like a "Requirment".

Proffesional rogues must run all the way away from where though plans to hide then walk all the way back OOCishly just to take your cover! Want to sneak behind someones back to another cover while NO ONE is looking IC wise?
Hell they still expect you to show yourself! So... Unstealth Walk to there.. Then run away then re stealth then come back.. It just doesnt make sense.

Folks have bin saying whenever you talk you must un stealth? Well hell what if I dont feel like running back to the corner of the map to re stealth in the near future. Just roleplay with in and say you see me IC. You dont need to see my sexy rogueish PC just to continue roleplaying and stay IC. In PnP you never saw your little characters anyways.
I also have heard about a rumor where DEVs plan to make it so that you are forced out of stealth when you talk? Bleh that has SO MANY flaws. What about simple emotes and such wont that end up makeing us reveal ourselves? Especially since if I find a stealthy way to move from one cover to another people DEMAND that I emote it and then of course With the supposed script Id still be forced out of stealth. ~Tell me if im wrong someone tipped me that this may be in the works.

Either way. Play a rogue and see how hard it is to stay stealthed. No matter what I could NEVER stay hidden from folks eyes in my first 6 or so levels. I had to waste thousands which was loads to me in the beginning on Stealth + gear from the thief shop. I still was seen by almost everyone.. It rolls every round which means your poorest roll has to have a chance at beating everyone elses best for you to even stand a chance. Also to add onto the fact. I took the Stealth feat and the shadow feat and gave up some kickass combat feats. Which made my char even more horrible at obtaining gold and PvE'ing. So folks. If I end up giveing up Skills Feats and Gold and work my arse off for it I best be able to enjoy my stealth without folks Biteing at me every second. And Surely its difficult enough to stay hidden without some good +hide/MS Faction gear. And once the Devs start handing out spot/listen + check gear like candy? Then that little + boost that allows us to stand a chance at enjoying the skill to the slightest bit (even though it isnt fun since everyone is going at you OOC wise)
Will become unseen and countered. So Stealthing by will seem impossible.

And since when did every single person have Eagle eyes?
Folks with 17 spot use to be able to spot me all the time even if i had 30ish spot.
Its just a matter of rounds till a person with a mediocre spot can find someone with a high amount of Hide even without looking at that general direction. And of course no one agrees to allowing a Newbie Rogue to take cover and roll hide/MS with a simple one time DMFI Skill roll against anothers.

But of course everyone Insists on whichever roll or method gives there character a higher advantage in their situation or scenario. So of course almost no one will agree besides Rogue players themselves.

Excuse any typos etc. Hate long forum posts but I just want to put my say out there because im tired of all the folks biteing at me every second in game for a skill I majorly specced in and gave up any CvC/PvP Potential just so I can efficently use it for once.
Do you see rogues running around whomping ass like all the Clerics and mages do?
No
Well then leave them alone :P