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  • Buffs and Spells

    This isn't directed at anyone specific, and it obviously does not constitute a rule or anything similar due to my not having anything to do with decision-making on Sundren. This post is just something for people to consider, as it might alter your perspective on the subject of buffs and spells, which are clearly a monumental part of the game.

    Mainly, my concern is with people walking around buffed 100% of the time, seemingly ready for combat at any given point. From rest until rest, there are many people who have constant arcane or divine defenses swarming around their person, regardless of the situation. Whether sitting around the campfire, in the middle of a temple, surrounded by guards and allies, or appropriatly in a warzone, I'd dare say that the majority of players are buffed if they are capable of buffing themselves at all.

    Yes, I understand that your character may feel justified because he or she has enemies, and he or she is paranoid of this or that, but have you ever stopped to think of the consequences of being buffed all the time? There is a reason high-level spellcasters are often portrayed as insane and eccentric; magic can do a number of things to the mind of the target and the caster, alike. I'm not going to list and explain every example, but think of the effects that a spell like Premonition would have on a person. Premonition lasts at least ten IG hours or so, and that equates to ten hours of actively existing a few seconds ahead of everyone else around you; the caster is experiencing life a few seconds ahead of schedule, and is happening before his surroundings are. That sounds like a maddening existance to me, especially when you make the transition between having that spell active and when you don't.

    What about Haste? Living in constant accelerated motion would be a pretty ridiculous experience as well - Longstrider fits the bill do a lesser extent. Barkskin, Spiderskin, Stoneskin? You're tampering with the fabric of your body. Mind Blank, Protection from Alignment? You're penetrating your own brain with energy from the weave. The list goes on, and on, and hopefully demonstrates that a caster should definetly be effected by the tremendous amount of magic he pumps through and around himself.

    Furthermore, Wizards specifically have to realize that casting spells requires a lot of memory-capacity, as that is the whole concept of the spellbook they carry; Wizards memorize spells from it. To go on casting binges, although surely possible, is a mentally taxing event. Do dish out 10 buffs at a time just to sit at a campfire would not be a pleasent feeling, and would certainly be pushing mental limits. Sorcerers would likely not experience this problem to the same extent, but they would still be affected by the specific details of any given spell; they would still have their mind wrecked by constant Premonition, for instance.

    On a related note, divine casters need to recognize that their spells are not coming from their own efforts, but the efforts of their deity. Each spell that a divine class casts draws from the power of a God, who does indeed eventually suffer on behalf of the caster (as I understand it). If half a million Cleric's of Torm all got together and cast Ressurection, Torm would probably shrivel up and have a seizure. Some deities are capable of hosting a large amount of spellcasters, and some are not so powerful - either way, a God would not want their presence and power to dwindle due to their servants walking around, fully buffed, to read a book at a campfire. People can lose the favor of their God by being so careless and reckless with their abilities (as I understand it). Clerics and the like, in my opinion, should thus be more careful before going on their own casting binges for their own purposes and desires.

    This is all just my opinion, and does not reflect the words or decisions (official or otherwise) of anyone else. I just think that being fully buffed all the time is not a logical course of action for the above-mentioned reasons... unless your character RP's the consequences accordingly.
    Pyras: Red Wizard of Thay, High Arcanist of Illusion, Master of the Enclave's Knight Commander.

    Currently taking apprentices, and conducting research.

  • #2
    Ah ha! I now know why Larando seems to be drifting into insanity!

    Good points, though. Due to Larando's affiliations and goings-on, he does tend to stay heavy on certain spells that skew others' views of him. But, his progression is going into a slight madness

    I was actually hoping to stage for some fun RP against a magekiller class (if we get any) later on. But, yeah. I don't know about other caster classes, but if a person reads up much on arcane casters, they go crazy from going too long casting without rest or casting too much at a time.
    Larando de'Kaun: Larando's history.
    Originally posted by Gabryal
    is it just me or is Larando kind of the Monty Python of villains? It seems that everything he tries doesn't just go wrong, but horribly so
    Cazador: The marauding beast's heart.
    "The Hunt must be clean. If disease or affliction is visited on hunters by a beast, clergy of Malar must do all they can to root out and exterminate the taint, that bloodlines and beasts in the wild remain always strong." -The gospel of Saernclaws

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    • #3
      My opinion on the matter is this:

      -- If a spell is unobtrustive, lasts in the hour-per-level range or higher (or is persisted), there is very little reason that a spellcaster would not want to be protected by it, and basically have it on at most / all times. Especially for a high-level spellcaster, I think that a morning routine would be to wake up, use the sort of defenses that last all day, and do it as part of splashing off the face and brushing hair and stuff.

      "Hm. I can go through my day today being completely immune to the casters who'd like to hit me with a Finger of Death, or I can wait to cast it after I may already be dead. Let me think about this a bit."

      -- If a spell is something that's externally noticable, especially in the Annoyingly Bright or Skin-Altering category, but still lasts that long, a caster would probably hesitate before going around with it on all the time. Unlike the previous category, it would affect his interactions with others -- possibly negatively.

      -- If a spell lasts a minute per level, even Extended I just don't see it as possible to keep up all the time. Even a spontaneous caster who can do it until they're out of slots still only has about four hours of Bulls' Strength, for instance, at the very most. This is why, although it would be very useful for Tam to have True Seeing on all the time to detect annoying druid birds, she doesn't. And usually, the only time she's had it on to spot such birds are when someone tips her off, or when she's already buffed with the intention of hitting another target.

      This issue would be a lot easier if the server ran on one-to-one time. One rest per day, for an extended period, and hour-per-level spells actually lasting that long instead of "about as long as an extended conversation."

      I think that the issues regarding people with an unusual number of buffs goes away if they try to stiffen up the rest rules voluntarily, and spells actually become a finite resource instead of something you can drop and recover at any time.

      Regarding negative consequences of spells: Kangleton, I think you may be making some unwarranted assumptions here. Remember, people in general are adaptable to a new 'norm', especially the masters of the craft that get into persisted spells and the likes of Premonition. This would, however, leave them feeling exposed or vulnerable without spells that they could and do always have active. Tam, for instance, recasts a certain sequence of spells every time she finishes praying, and I treat it as part of her devotion -- praying for protection. Without them active, in a place that isn't safe, she feels distinctly uncomfortable. The presence of divine magic is, in her case, a comforting thing that is missed when it's gone.
      Adama who was once called Adama Hrakness, sacred paw of Mielikki

      Lihana Farrier, Paladin of Torm and noble dalliance

      On Hold: Alandriel Ward, Actually a Vampire Groupie
      Retired for Good: Tamryn Jorandur, Hano's Wife and Conflicted Soul

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Raksha View Post
        My opinion on the matter is this:

        -- If a spell is unobtrustive, lasts in the hour-per-level range or higher (or is persisted), there is very little reason that a spellcaster would not want to be protected by it, and basically have it on at most / all times. Especially for a high-level spellcaster, I think that a morning routine would be to wake up, use the sort of defenses that last all day, and do it as part of splashing off the face and brushing hair and stuff.
        I used to follow this philosophy (or a variant thereof). If people really are trying to kill you it's particularly valid! Routinely using mage armour, protection from good/evil, resist elements, and things of that nature seems perfectly reasonable to me (also bear in mind that PCs are routinely travelling between towns by themselves). Going about looking like a hasted christmas tree is a bit gauche though . Non casters are wandering around covered in magical gear with similar effects... This isn't any sort of ruling by the way.
        I got one leg missin'
        How do I get around?

        One Leg Missin'
        Meet the Feebles

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        • #5
          I do however believe that one cannot carry on a conversation while buffing. I have to say that I was particularly annoyed by Ariel's incessant buffing all the time whilst casually resting at the campfire.

          If one spends all of their time in constant fear, they will be leading an unhappy life.
          Dahdmib Al Faruk: Whirling Ranger
          Dordleton Grumplestout: Spelunker Gadgeteer
          Shalika Ike: A Dark Woman with a Dark Past

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          • #6
            The only buff Elric usually had on was protection from good, so that nobody could really detect how evil he really was. On the occasion that you will see him with buffs on, it is because he just came back from someplace he really needed those buffs.

            I agree with Kangleton, people should not just be standing around fully buffed. I always thought is was ridiculous to be fully buffed standing around the campfire at exigo. The guards are there and nothing should happen from player characters if the are rping correctly.

            Now, I can't vouch for a DM that may come by and take a swipe at you. Even now, with Elric being on the outs with most of Sundren, he doesn't run around fully buffed. That is what diplomacy or flat out running if for

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            • #7
              I disagree with the OP 100%.

              Fact: Magic does not exist in real life.
              Fact: You cannot speak from personal experience the effect it has on a wizard.

              I for one see absolutely no problem with people fully buffing. You want to know why?
              This is a digital game with no pause button. If they hit a little bit of lag, or there head is turned away from the monitor to talk to their girlfriend, they're dead.

              If your sitting around a table top with a DM, and you spot a orc, he will wait for you to tell him what spell you want to cast and such. You do not get this luxury in NWN2. You have approximately 9 seconds to respond. Then he's all over you. There is no, "Hang on let me get a beer and think this out".

              This is called suspending your disbelief. You accept certain things as they are because of the environment you are playing in. You learn to look past them as givens instead of finding reasons to resent them.


              Lastly, please do not find issue against spells that have an actual vfx. That was Black Isle, Bioware, and Obsidian, not Dungeons and Dragons, trying to "Make an impact" and sell the game. A good example is stoneskin. DND just says you get resistance to damage. sprinkle a little diamond and granite (material components which are consumed by casting the spell) and poof your protected.

              Bioware and Obsidian decided to take the spell's name literally and give you a stone looking skin.

              If it bothers people that much I can remove all the vfxs except for the ones that are supposed to be there (fire shield, ghostly visage, etc). But if I do that.. wouldn't it be a bit more boring then? Less flash and glare?

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              • #8
                On a related note, divine casters need to recognize that their spells are not coming from their own efforts, but the efforts of their deity. Each spell that a divine class casts draws from the power of a God, who does indeed eventually suffer on behalf of the caster (as I understand it). If half a million Cleric's of Torm all got together and cast Ressurection, Torm would probably shrivel up and have a seizure. Some deities are capable of hosting a large amount of spellcasters, and some are not so powerful - either way, a God would not want their presence and power to dwindle due to their servants walking around, fully buffed, to read a book at a campfire. People can lose the favor of their God by being so careless and reckless with their abilities (as I understand it). Clerics and the like, in my opinion, should thus be more careful before going on their own casting binges for their own purposes and desires.
                Just a note; gods LOVE their priests to use the powers granted to them, why? Because it is spreading the word of their faith. They grant powers because casters using those powers in turn empowers them, as is what clerics do, they go around preaching the word of their deity, and every thought given to a god in turn empowers them, that was the point of Ao directly connecting deities to their subjects, so they had to empower them, and in turn were empowered by them, so in effect, gods reap the benefits from granting their clerics/paladins/druids/whatever power. =)
                Aesa Volsung - Uthgardt Warrior

                Formerly
                Gabrielle Atkinson - Mage Priest of Torm
                Anasath Zesiro - Mulhorandi Morninglord
                Kyoko - Tiefling Diviner
                Yashedeus - Cyrist Warlock
                Aramil - Nutter

                GMT -8

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                • #9
                  This brought Kangleton down a notch. I don't really bother with people going round buffed - perhaps theres no need for it in the city or near the campefire but if thats how you feel...
                  The only thing I have against people buffing is when there arguing and you can see some PvP element coming into it so they go off, buff up and come back all ready to fight. That can sometimes be a downer, but thats all I would have a problem with.
                  Originally posted by Lollercide
                  Not even Ilmater would suffer Dune and Mach's wrath for us.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by sharringtonm View Post

                    If it bothers people that much I can remove all the vfxs except for the ones that are supposed to be there (fire shield, ghostly visage, etc). But if I do that.. wouldn't it be a bit more boring then? Less flash and glare?

                    I would vote for that!

                    I don't mind the fact that someone likes to run around buffed to the teeth (in case a horde fo orcs suddenly invades the Trading post!) quite so much as having to look at the special effects all the time. Sure, suspending disbelief is what it's all about, but the less you have to suspend, the easier it gets to become truly immersed. Right?

                    Barkskin and Stoneskin and such are perhaps borderline cases, but a glaring blue globe that makes you look like a fairy trapped inside a Christmas ornament, or a continuous flare that makes me wonder if my vid card is broken again, I don't need to look at for any length of time.

                    Less is more, I say.
                    Annaleen Wiltenholm-There's always something to smile about.
                    Chani Kalera- Intimidation is the new diplomacy. *looms*
                    Eleanor "Bloody Elle" Lark - Why is the rum always gone?
                    Yolanda Brown - If life gives you lemons, make lemonade. But unless life also gives you water and sugar, your lemonade is going to suck.
                    Astrid Hammerhand - Och!

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                    • #11
                      I have recently been put under the impression that people seem to think that I've stated buffing is wrong. I didn't say that. I said that it should have some kind of consequence as per the realism of of the effect. I understand the perspective of suspending disbelief, but although I don't know what magic is like, I know what it's like to be human. And being human, if I existed 4 seconds in the future and held a conversation with you who does not live 4 seconds in the future, I'd find that a mentally taxing experience.

                      I'm not telling people to stop buffing, and I'm not telling people that they should go insane, but it certainly isn't a casual experience. That's my only real point here.

                      Aaaaaand I'm leaving for the weekend. Toodles.
                      Pyras: Red Wizard of Thay, High Arcanist of Illusion, Master of the Enclave's Knight Commander.

                      Currently taking apprentices, and conducting research.

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                      • #12
                        Well, I can give you my point of view about buffs and spells:

                        1. Believe it or not, the wizards, sorcerers, warlocks, druids, rangers and cleric doesn't have to use reagents to use the spells. And they only need to wait 10 minutes to next rest, wich in the PW if you RP, 10 minutes passes flying.

                        In the same PW I was DM, we used a reagent system for spells like Stone Skin, Raise Dead, Resurrection, True Seeing, Summon Undead, Summon Greater Undead. This reduced the amount of permanent stoneskined and trueseers.

                        2. Regarding the overuse of spells that happens because nobody it's controlling that. There is no organization or entity on Sundren like the Cowled Wizards of Amn to control the overuse of magic and put in jail to the mad wizards and penalize the usage of magic without having papers for that.
                        I know about the Sundarian Battlemages capables to handle a mad wizard, but an organization who brings more cash flow to the city treasure may be good.

                        3. About Spell FX:
                        I think the spell effects may be there, anyway who doesn't knows the spell effects and benefits (OOC) can't figure that.
                        Last edited by Skro; 06-20-2008, 03:30 PM.
                        Lucy Majer - "Squire of ???????"
                        義 - 勇 - 仁 - 礼 - 誠 - 名誉「名譽 - 忠義

                        "With a heart of steel riding on wings of thunder, we'll raise our sword of resolution high. With fangs of revenge and claws of hatred, we'll return to our golden age."

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                        • #13
                          the developers need to remove the Challenge Difficulty and Buff List from the Examine sheet of the characters to avoid knowing about his/her powers.
                          Please edit this Skro. Its on the Dead Horse List and will get this thread locked.

                          And being human, if I existed 4 seconds in the future and held a conversation with you who does not live 4 seconds in the future, I'd find that a mentally taxing experience.
                          Again, your making assumptions on experiences you do not have. No one has ever lived "four minutes in the future" and so there is no way of knowing.

                          Edit:
                          http://www.sundren.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4019
                          OP, please reread this and pay attention to rule #2. Thanks

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                          • #14
                            As a PC, I regard anyone who is buffed much more cautiously. I will sometimes back away from a situation if someone starts randomly buffing themselves, as I don't always know their intentions. I can't really control anyone but myself, and I view these acts as possibly aggressive.

                            As a DM, I definitely have NPCs react differently to those with buffs or in the act of buffing. People are welcome to behave as they please with spells, but actions have consequences. For me, it will have negative affects on your influence and diplomacy, though maybe added to your intimidate pending on your words.
                            "Microsoft has to move the Reply All button further away from the Reply button. It's the computer equivalent of putting the vagina so close to the sphincter."
                            -Bill Maher

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                            • #15
                              Agreed that the snowglobe is pretty annoying. My big complaint about the obsessive buffing is the time suck associated with it. Sometimes it is more fun to just get out there without any buffs and just smack it around old school. The trouble is just that you will likely get you butt kicked if you try to do that as a Mage or Druid.
                              Dahdmib Al Faruk: Whirling Ranger
                              Dordleton Grumplestout: Spelunker Gadgeteer
                              Shalika Ike: A Dark Woman with a Dark Past

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