Pickpocketing, Etiquette & Server Rules

[serjester]

Quote:
Originally Posted by serjester
So my character is minding his own business, loitering (and perhaps occasionally cutting a purse-string), in the Exigo Trading Post. All of a sudden a halfling rogue, we'll call him "Dan", uncloaks right behind my character and beats him into submission with his knobby little halfling fists. After sneak attacking my character into unconsciousness (I am level 3), my character stands up and is berated with a barrage of interrogative insults and accusations. "Dan" presumes my character to be a member of the Mask of Shar? WTF? No, I am not now nor have ever been a member of the Communist Party -- or the Mask of Shar for that matter. Can't a thief make an honest living stealing from others without being accused of grand conspiracies?

Response by Shad:

In the first place, this doesn't belong here, why you posted it here god only knows. In the second place, SerJester has 2 characters I know of, one named "Commoner" and one named "Merchant" he dresses them as commoners and merchants and uses his names as a metagaming disguise so he can pickpocket people. IMHO, he's a jerk, these characters should be deleted, and his account banned for some period of time.

Shad

Response by me::

In regard to etiquette, I don't think we need to make this personal. You're saying the player, aka. me, is a jerk? You don't even know me. And even if you did, that's not particularly constructive.

Secondly, I did give it some consideration whether or not it was in violation of the rule or even the spirit of Sundren to have a character disguised as a Commoner. I saw a girl selling newspapers who had that as her name, so I felt vindicated it was legit.

I would argue that it's not "metagaming" but is actually in the spirit of the rogue pickpocket: the purpose of pickpocketing is to remain inconspicuous -- to blend in with one's surroundings. And pickpocketing itself is a rogue class skill. It's not violation of NWN2 but the utilization of skill that the game gives you. I personally think having a pickpocket lurking around a trading post from time to time makes things most interesting (and it's note like one's "take" is that great: 25 gps, and a very poor success rate, which leads many to call the skill "broken"). I also have normal characters whom I roleplay with, and put a lot of thought and effort into. I have never used "merchant" for anything -- only commoner.

Now to argue that "Dan" was justified in his attack on an unarmed and stationary opponent because, after the fact, you deciphered that this "Commoner" character was a pickpocket does not justify Dan's actions, since these were not his reasons at the time.

Lastly, I apologize for posting in the wrong place. I thought it was at least tangentially related to the subject of disguises and the Mask of Shar and accusations regarind the latter.

Okay, really lastly: I will delete Commoner and Merchant from my profile, as I think it's better to use a more colorful character if I ever choose to try out the pickpocketing racket again. I welcome other's opinions on the matter, just out of curiousity, if they care to share.

[Shadoweaver]

So what you are saying is, I was wrong about everything, but you are going to get rid of the characters anyway?

Shad

[Dark presence]

We have the dmfi for a reason, and I think this is one of them. Don't pickpocket, just roll it. There are a lot of reasons for this...

Firstly, hearkening from NWN1 days, the pickpocket skill, as coded, could steal literally anything. A talking sentient sword, a 50 pound suit of full plate, a single arrow, whatever. It was terribly implemented because of the ridiculousness of what could be stolen. Now I don't know if it has changed significantly or not in NWN 2 but that is doubtful.


Secondly, it is poorly implemented for detection. The mechanics only allow the victim a spot roll. Not the person staring across the fire at that person and the hand in their pocket. So why then do rogues think that no one else should see their thievery? Invisibilty has no reason to help, because pickpocketing is a hostile act, and per PNP rules, invisiblity should be dispelled. More importantly, though, nothing stops the thief from being physically felt as they touch the person.

Why do rogues think someone can't feel you robbing them? This is how real life pickpockets work. They know they will be felt so they bump into people, or brush by them, whatever. It is a distraction bump so they can pick the pocket at the same time, leaving most people none the wiser, because it was all a distraction that usually works.


And finally, no matter what, there is no mechanic to allow you to get your item back, even if you detect the pickpocket. You can beat up and kill the thief as often as they respawn, but they never have to give that item back. While I won't suggest anyone here is like that, that is a very serious concern for most people, because it requires a person to trust a thief to play fairly.


So in conclusion, if you want to pickpocket, don't use the engine. Use the dice rolls. I can't speak for anyone but myself here, but I am a hundred times more comfortable if a pickpocket announces it with a tell or something, and makes a roll, for everyone to counter with spot, and actually RPs it out, instead of being the stealth ninja type relying completely on the very flawed engine. If they do win they'll get a lot more gold from me, than the game would give them.

[Kangleton]

I agree with absolutely everything that was stated aside from one thing. There are pickpockets who can take things without you ever having felt an invasion of personal space - I used to be able to do that. Granted, it depends on what you're taking and where you're taking it from, objects like wallets can get snatched without ever having felt a thing.

Furthermore, the idea of rolling Pick Pocket is good, but it has a slight problem. Everyone who witnesses the roll, OOC, will know that the character is a thief - even if they fail their spot checks. It is a public, OOC announcment which says "I steal things", and that will make other players nervous to be around said character. I am not discrediting the idea, only stating that some people may be justified to elect to just use the engine, as to save their own reputation, OOC.

[serjester]

I didn't realize that using the pickpocketing skill itself was problematic (rather than rolling it to the observers on the screen). In any event, the times I used it (about 6 times, honestly) I got: 25 gp, 30 gp, magical darts, raw meat, a potion of antidote, and a entropic shield spell. This is over about an eight day stretch. The fact you could theoretically steal someone's magical sword seems a bit overpowering to me (especially if the townships encourage you to sheath your weapons, which then make them vulnerable to pick pocket).

In any event, I appreciate the responses. I think I'll just forgo the whole pickpocket thing from now on: not that rewarding, not that fun, too controversial, and seems to ruffle too many feathers (in fact I remember a post about Dan, who was being publicly accused of the same thing! Though in a commendable roleplaying sort of way).

In response to Shad's comment, I am not deleting the two characters in sheepish admission of wrongdoing, but in recognition of your objection. I personally think Dan's best objection, and anyone's, to my initial post is that it was kind of whiney. Character's get the stuffin kicked out of them from time to time, especially if they seem a bit shady. Such is virtual-life. I should deal with it. Of course that doesn't make me a jerk, just a complainer. I still wish I knew what the hell the shady organization of the Mask of Shar was, but I'll comb more through the posts on that topic.

In any event, I do have other characters that I enjoy socially roleplaying with the other citizens of Sundren. The pickpocket thing was just a momentary excursion -- a (ig)noble experiment. Now laid to rest. Thanks again for the input.