Characters vs IC Reality

[Machiavelli]

As far as looking down on adventurers... my problem isn't with adventurers. My problem is with people who think they are still playing a game when they are RPing.

I could've sworn it was a game... I bought it in a shop, and loaded it up on my computer!

I don't care whether people want to fight or not, but I think both are legitimate. Sometimes I want to do one, and sometimes the other.

[Sammael]

But my opinions aren't widely shared, I suppose. *Shrugs*

Perhaps someone should make a poll to find out whether this is true on this server. I'd make one myself, but I'm afraid I'd word it wrong.

[Krya Flacongrace]

Perhaps someone should make a poll to find out whether this is true on this server. I'd make one myself, but I'm afraid I'd word it wrong.

I dont think that is helpfull, nor contributes anything...

[R3VOLV360]

But my opinions aren't widely shared, I suppose. *Shrugs*

And that what makes it such a unique experience
I'd personally hate to have everyone wanting to conquer Dungeon 34 again and again. Just me

[Rhifox]

I could've sworn it was a game... I bought it in a shop, and loaded it up on my computer!

Roleplaying is defined as playing the role of another character in an alternate setting and thus living the life of that character through their own shoes, not playing a videogame, or am I incorrect on this?

[Wyvern76]

Anyway. I actually do like having a few almost all "Talk" characters much more then the all "combat" characters around. But that wasn't the idea of this thread and I am responsible for hijacking it.

Rhifox and I both seem to agree that as Role Players we should play our characters as living growing peoples. Not static character concepts that do not corespond to IC reality or grow over time and the personal experiences they've faced.

Like faiths that are closely related we seem to be fighting tooth and nail over fine points rather than the broad simularities in our views.

[Machiavelli]

Roleplaying is defined as playing the role of another character in an alternate setting and thus living the life of that character through their own shoes, not playing a videogame, or am I incorrect on this?

As a quick prelude, I've been a roleplayer for 15+ years, and d&d isn't usually my thing, I usually go for stuff with less dice, more character driven, etc (so I tend to be in broad agreement with many of the things you say, despite the fact that I argue on the forums with alot of your more extreme points in relation to RPing in an online d&d PW). As for your questions...

Is it about playing a role? Yes, absolutely, that's the point!

Is it about getting into their shoes and trying to act/react as they might do? Sure thing it is.

Is it also a game? Yes, patently so; whether it's being done around a tabletop, as part of a 20 character freeform being played in a house, or using a program on your computer; it is, in fact, still a game. There are plenty of ways to go about playing it, and it can be taken more, or less, seriously. But it really is a game!

[rustediron]

I agree with Mal here... even extremism has a limit
Though yes roleplaying is getting into the shoes of another, etc etc, NWN2 IS a game, and is meant to be played. Although many people's ideas of playing are different, everyone plays to have fun.
Thus, I think it is acceptable that some people (including me) may take everything as a bit of a lark, and mostly inconsequential. As long as they have low wis.

[ThePaganKing]

I think people should play they way they want, within the rules of the game and the type of server you are on.

As to people that became great fighters or leaders with just training.......a bunch of horse hockey. Even Bruce Lee fought and fought a lot. He didn't kill people, but he participated in many, many tournaments. Most martial arts today, at least those based on fighters such as Bruce Lee and his ilk, fought in tournament after tournament. Have you ever seen those tournaments...can be very savage and bloody. He wasn't one of the best martial artists just through sheer training.

There are many examples throughout history where peace time generals failed miserably when they actually had the test of fire. There are many examples that I could list from the American Civil War through today and Krya already mentioned some of them. Many of our best generals in the American Civil war participated in the Mexican/American war and were battle tested. Many of our greatest generals in WWI had been battle tested in the Spanish/American war and along the American/Mexican border. Many of our greatest generals in WWII were battle tested in WWI, many of our greatest generals today were battle tested in Korea and Vietnam.

You can learn a lot from books and training, but until you are actually in a position of combat..............you never really know how you will react.

Finally, lets remember what D&D is based on.......fantasy books most of which are based on a group of people that are either voluntarily but mostly involuntarily thrown into a situation where they have to go through a series of trials or adventures to attain some type of victory............destroying the evil and saving mankind.

Thus, most D&D based games are based on the people that have an adventuresome spirit and want to make a difference, whether good or evil.

I am not saying you can't gain some experience and such through study and training, but to really get to the higher levels, you have to be tested, IMO, and those tests usually are in dungeons or in battle or some such test.

Do you really think that a wizard, who only stayed pretty much cloistered and studied and gained in magical power could really go out, after years and years of seclusion and study, and face down serious foes with his magic? Would he freeze? Would he flinch at the danger. Would he break down at the first damage he took or freak out because he just incinerated a group of living, sentient beings? You never know unless you actually experience it.

You can always say you are a badass until you actually have to prove it.

[GodBeastX]

I like to think of D&D as a CINEMATIC reality, not true reality. Cinematic reality is if it's plausible then it can happen. True reality is, if it's able to fail, it likely will.

For an example, if I throw a knife at someone in reality, they're likely going to put up their hands, flinch, or just get stabbed. If I do it in a Cinematic reality, they're going to back flip, catch it, and throw it back at me. That's the difference.

GURPS is one of my favorite P&P engines, and has optional rules for cinematic play style. D&D is always turned on for Cinematics, because we have to be real, somehow in D&D a dragon can bite someone in full plate and only take off 5% of their life, when in reality if a T-Rex bit you, you'd probably just be dead (I figure the mouth sizes are similar).

So, while Rhifox is right, you try to live a reality, you have to be careful not to try to limit yourself to mundane reality. I mean, we are trying to become one with another reality, likely because your Real Life is pretty boring.

[Rhifox]

As to people that became great fighters or leaders with just training.......a bunch of horse hockey. Even Bruce Lee fought and fought a lot. He didn't kill people, but he participated in many, many tournaments. Most martial arts today, at least those based on fighters such as Bruce Lee and his ilk, fought in tournament after tournament. Have you ever seen those tournaments...can be very savage and bloody. He wasn't one of the best martial artists just through sheer training.

You're just confirming what I was saying.

What do you think training is?

Battle reenactments. Physical conditioning. Fights in a controlled environment. When I talk about training, I'm talking about things like tournaments and the like. I don't know what you think I was talking about.

[Rhifox]

Do you really think that a wizard, who only stayed pretty much cloistered and studied and gained in magical power could really go out, after years and years of seclusion and study, and face down serious foes with his magic? Would he freeze? Would he flinch at the danger. Would he break down at the first damage he took or freak out because he just incinerated a group of living, sentient beings? You never know unless you actually experience it.

Exactly. This isn't a measure of overall *power*, however, this is a measure of willpower and mental fortitude and conditioning. Such things are based on Wisdom, the skill of Concentration, Constitution, and so on. But that doesn't mean you can't get to a high level through pure training and practice (I guess I have to state both now. When I referred to training, I meant both study as well as practice in a controlled environment).

There's nothing stopping a wizard from learning 9th level spells on their own, for instance. But the PROPER APPLICATION of them in a combat situation requires practice and 'combat experience'. This is generally something that naturally occurs on the player side. For instance, when a player wizard first learns 9th level spells, RP-wise they might have them, but it isn't until that player uses them in actual combat that they learn how to use it. That is something that doesn't need to be measured with in-game experience points.

Personally, my own character freezes up, looks away from grevious wounds, hides, tends to watch and wait rather than act, and so on when in an RP combat situation. (not with dungeoning though because if I'm in a dungeon, as I've stated before, it's because I've already killed most of her personality to begin with just to give her reason to be there).

Finally, lets remember what D&D is based on.......fantasy books most of which are based on a group of people that are either voluntarily but mostly involuntarily thrown into a situation where they have to go through a series of trials or adventures to attain some type of victory............destroying the evil and saving mankind.

Involuntary. Unfortunately, said involuntary rarely happens in RPGs or in RP. Which is a shame. I LIKE the idea of involuntarily getting involved as that allows you to get involved with dire situations with characters who would otherwise not want to, and thus RP out their reactions to the situation. Unfortunately, most situations are voluntary, which means that said characters are unlikely to get involved.

[Scavar]

I like what GBX said. My life is boring, I'm back flipping a knife at someone starting tomorrow.

[Machiavelli]

I gotta say, I mostly play to have fun. I certainly don't view it like reality (which I'm actually of the opinion is pretty interesting despite what GBX said ); reality doesn't have elves, and lesbian goth vampire drow wearing sacks and full-face helms.

As for methods of advancement, surely it could happen in all sorts of ways. Training, experience of actual dire situations, etc.

I'd say advancement could be all sorts of things as well. Maybe it's an ongoing learning process, or maybe it's simply people tapping into their inherent potential, or knowledge which is just beyond their grasp until it's in the right context. Usually I'd consider it a combination of the two for my characters. I'll illustrate this with the example of one of my own characters (and maybe get properly back on topic in terms of whether people can have extensive backgrounds and how they advance).

Using Malaclypse as an example, I'll give a quick rundown on the relevant part of his background. Leaving aside most of his history, the important bit for this discussion is that he ended up apprenticed to a mage who became a lich (yeah, pure cheesyness, I know!), and effectively ended up a sort of apprentice-slave-Igor type for 23 years. Being involved in various hideous necromantic experimentations (made primarily on Gnomes ) drove him completely insane fairly rapidly. Nonetheless, during this period he witnessed, was involved in, and was exposed to vast quantities knowledge relating to the practice of Necromancy, and of magic in general. All this information was absorbed to some extent, but because of his madness it got locked away in the dark corners of his brain, and not fully comprehended or even available for him to access (thus why he would only be level 3, with appropriate skill levels). Thus I conceived him as someone who did have alot of experience right from the start.

In terms of advancement from there, I viewed it as a process of learning, but also (and primarily) as one of gaining proper access to knowledge that he already had but was unable to use due to the fact that it was linked so closely to his previous insanity (and tended to make him loopy when he tried to think about it). Thus I did RP him from the start as someone who was fairly certain of himself in terms of his knowledge of certain things (necromancy primarily), because he was always certain that he was on the verge of understanding and being able to cope with them.

Just trying to make a point about the possibility that charcters can have inherent potential built into them, even at low level (there are plenty of ways that this can be done), though it might not yet be realised. If people do have that sort of potential envisioned for their character, then it's possible that they might not need so much concrete experience of difficult or dangerous situations to realise it.

Anyways, just wanted to point out that both charcters starting points, and the potential ways for them to advance are only limited by your imagination (within reasonable bounds of course). I don't think there's a "Right" way of doing things, different people will have different preferences and ideas.

[GodBeastX]

All I can say is this. Bruce Lee popped out of no where with his skills of Jeet Kun do, and whooped the crap out of someone. That was with no real world fighting experience. Sorry people, Training outside of combat can be just as effective, and sometimes more effective.

Here's an example:

Movie 300.

Would you rather have Soldiers who went through rigorous training defend the pass? Or a townsfolk who had been fighting off bandits for the last decade? Sure, the townsfolk have more real world fighting experience, but I bet the soldiers would kick their asses.

Could a wizard who had been in a tower come out and obliterate people with magic? Absolutely! Would he freeze up? Doesn't that depend on the person?