Maia's return

[Machiavelli]

"I personally think that a nature based group/guild/whatever would be ace even if it wasn't DM supported."

Or an elven one. Both promoted some excellent events and rp.

'Nuff said

[wangxiuming]

People did remember Maia! Like me!

[Infernal_Havok]

If I'm not mistaken, for which I am frequently. I thought the previous prewipe nature guild that was player made, turned into a HUGE elven "clique" that was starting a race war and Elven bi-sexualism on the server? But I might be wrong.

[Zoberraz]

The Council of Voices never promoted bi-sexualism... or anything like that. GBX's point of view about elven women turning lesbian always felt like poor humor to me.

The Council of Voice was an elven clique and did hold the problems that involved thanks to our sun elf NPCs which were involved. I'd say though that since Ash got involved that things with the Council and the Elf Stronghold improved a lot in term of how we directed our roleplaying.

Essentially, I think the Council of Voices was just getting good when we got the wipe because we finally had a DM whom tried to help it along. It also turned into something of a coalition to nature as well (mostly NPCs, though), but that was because the elf faction was much bigger and more influencial.

This time around, if a guild is made, I seriously think making it nature/druid/ranger oriented will be better, if only for the bigger tolerance in regard to alignments and the broader appeal without mixing racial matters into that but rather ideology.

[Myrddin]

Tree Huggers Local 123

While I would love to see an Elven village in the Mossdale forest open to all who can find it via a forest transition. I would not like to see a repeat of a Elven only or its peudo-counterpart a Druid/Ranger only guild-like organization. The more guilds we have the more work we force upon the already overworked staff.

I do agree with the general idea of a Sylvan oriented guild, but my view would tend to be more pre-Romanized Celtic in its orientation, so it would be open to Bards, Sorcerers and Barbarians in addition Druids, Elves and Rangers, as well as any class when the player character is open to Nature and/or the Balance.

[Saulus]

Keep in mind elves are a serious minority both lore wise and population wise in Sundren. It's unlikely that we will have any kind of nature specific group, at most in the future I could see some loose faction based on affiliations in the ranger outpost, and it would be quite general.

[Zoberraz]

While I would love to see an Elven village in the Mossdale forest open to all who can find it via a forest transition. I would not like to see a repeat of a Elven only or its peudo-counterpart a Druid/Ranger only guild-like organization. The more guilds we have the more work we force upon the already overworked staff.

I recall that Maia was working pretty hard to establish a home in the forest, pre-wipe, and that we actually had many of us going around keeping that region 'safer'. One thing I've always sort of regretted was that even if we did get an elven outpost... that zone came more because a DM (Euniana then) decided we'd have one... rather than a home having come from any effort on our part. (seriously... all the work and effort in the forest only to see it happen in the plains? It was something of a bittersweet situation)

It was both a little sad and enlightening at the same time, since it gave me an understanding of what Sundren was in the eyes of the DMs: a storytelling tool in which they provide us the experience they wish to give us... but in which we have little power to make a difference. wether right or wrong, it left a lasting impression which was only somewhat alleviated by Ash's DMing late in the game. Whenever GBX came to me and said stuff like "You're lucky you ever got that at all", he always sort of reinforced that impression.

Which brings me to the next point.

Saulus, I think you're vastly underestimating the population of nature oriented characters on your server. The Druid Grove (in general, since the rangers are affiliated to them) seems every bit as powerful and established a faction as at least the Red Wizards of Thay (whom probably have a hidden forum here). From your point of view, you've never felt it was worthwhile and this was apparently - from what I heard - a view which was sufficiently diverging from the wishes of a good number of players so to motivate them into talking of setting up another forum space to be able to get the 'organization' you apparently feel is very loose and general.

I think that says something.

[Saulus]

I'm not vastly underestimating anything. There could be 50 people asking to play drow on the forum and I would still say no to making them a big faction. It's just not a particularly huge or intergal part of Sundren's lore or population as a whole (not talking about PCs, if you included the NPC population then anything players are is almost completely irrelevant).

And yes, from my point of view I've never felt it worthwhile, but it's my point of view that's a major deciding factor in 90% of all decisions made for the Sundren project.

I'm not saying that ranger/druidic type characters will get 0 support, I'm just saying don't expect any big faction or DM support for them as they aren't, and won't be a major player in Sundren's lore and factions. That also doesn't mean that players that are rangers or druids can't have an affect on the world, simply that the group as a whole won't be.

You also certainly have a lot of strong minded opinions for someone who said they wouldn't ever come back to the server.

[Zoberraz]

Well said Saulus. This brings other questions from me, though.

Then why is there a druid grove? Why is there a ranger outpost? What do they do in your setting that requires them area representation if you would in turn not feel that they will amount to very much (persistent worlds have a limited number of areas and need to watch how much space each area take - a lot of effort went into making the related areas, whom are beautiful too). Was the goal not have each of those play a role in this setting and to see representation? To allow bits of the setting which, for the interested players, could be used as catalyst to flesh out a better roleplaying experience which could in turn be supported by GMs whom would promote players making themselves involved in a part of the setting? Elves have no established place in Sundren, so, I get that point (I don't expect shrines of Solonor to pop up just because I picked that deity which Sundren has Solonor be totally not represented either). But it's not the same for the Grove - or even the churches of Umberlee, Oghma and Waukeen.

Player assumption is bad, which is why I ask. What are these people for? Why do they have uber powerful (according to Ash before wipe) spirits surrounding the heart of the Grove? What role do they play? How does the rest of Sundren regard these people - whom have nature-related powers which might actually be pretty strong?

For example, perhaps the Sundarians are in the habit of seeking out druids to know which trees would be best to log and that the druids in turn mark those trees and try to teach the Sundarians to plant seeds. Perhaps they adamantly oppose poachers and that, out of respect for their services, the Sundarian government might have had added laws against poaching (scratch my back and I scratch yours?). Perhaps the rangers and the druids are very opposed to the Mossclaw alliance bcause it's basically a war machine that abuses of the wilds and takes too much from it. Perhaps the rulers Sundren city has amongst its peerage a Druid whom serves as advisor in regard to handling the crops.

Druid Circles, how they were presented in D&D thus far, have a huge potential for getting involved in politics. They aren't just uninteresting tree huggers, though that is a common enough assumption on them. Of course, that might not be your take on it, but then, I don't know what your take is on them except "I don't expect them to be very influencial in the lore of Sundren". On my end, I end up being a little baffled.

It's hard to have it become worthwhile in your eyes (and that's part of the game, isn't it) when not really knowing what your intents were for them in the first place and then being told "I do not expect them to be major players in the world". GBX once told players that they weren't adventurers so much as people trying to eke out a living, but it's still pretty hard to make your way in the world when from the start God (you) decides the organization of that vocation is beneath notice compared to others.

I don't mean to rain on your parade. I just find it very misleading. Can you enlighten me/us?

[Saulus]

Well Sundren is in beta, things are constantly evolving. When Ash wanted to do the glade I could have told her no, but instead I allowed her creative freedom with it. What do the spirits there mean? Nothing really.

They have nothing established in the lore and they have no significant purpose or meaning. The Glade was originally going to be a Grove of Silvanus to fill the gap with the lack of a druidic presence with the large forests in Sundren. The grove likely won't stay the way it is... Again let me reiterate, Sundren is in beta. There are still many drastic changes to certain elements ahead.

So be prepared for those changes, because I can't give you anything solid on something that's constantly evolving. It's something you just have to live with.

[Blue_Wyrm]

This is my personnal answer, and may not reflect how the staff or admins would've answered, but I speak my mind because I think Zoberraz might not have the right viewing angle on this matter.

Saulus and several members of the staff have been working on this project for... I don't even know how much time, being a recent addition myself. They very obviously see way ahead of where we are, have a vision of what they want the Sundren of tomorrow to be. They've put efforts into Sundren that one couldn't even quantify, and also lend an attentive ear to the comments of players who come and enjoy their Beta. How they act on these comments is completely up to them because their world is totally non-lucrative (i.e. players are not customers, but people invited home for a P&P game).

That said...

A group of nature-oriented players that make themselves noticed with great RP are sure to be noticed anyway by one of the many DMs we now have, and you can expect a juicy quest or atmospheric event like any other player. I think what Saulus is trying to tell you is that if he doesn't feel like sinking his time and the staff's into developping this aspect of Sundren that he feels doesn't add to the lore he wants the server to reflect, well he won't do it.

[Satoshi]

... One thing I've always sort of regretted was that even if we did get an elven outpost... that zone came more because a DM (Euniana then) decided we'd have one... rather than a home having come from any effort on our part. (seriously... all the work and effort in the forest only to see it happen in the plains? It was something of a bittersweet situation)

It was both a little sad and enlightening at the same time, since it gave me an understanding of what Sundren was in the eyes of the DMs: a storytelling tool in which they provide us the experience they wish to give us... but in which we have little power to make a difference. wether right or wrong, it left a lasting impression which was only somewhat alleviated by Ash's DMing late in the game. Whenever GBX came to me and said stuff like "You're lucky you ever got that at all", he always sort of reinforced that impression.

I just want to say that I understand what you are saying, Zob, and agree to several extents. Saulus' response(s), while wholly accurate and faultless as Blue Wyrm has pointed out, reinforce this to an undeniable level. In this situation, there's always the ability to enjoy the story being told as best as one can. And, since Sundren is still in 'beta', and the story is being hammered out, we can always hope that we, the 'little folk who make up less than 1% of the population of Sundren' which consists of completely unspoken, unconcerned NPC/commoners who don't play the game for entertainment' might have a deeper influance than something purely happenstance or superficial.

Perhaps once the ship is out of it's maiden voyage, and has more than a bare-bones crew.

[Infernal_Havok]

Also keep in mind that nature oriented classes and races are not the only ones that have no affiliation or are a part of an integral server faction. There are many many players who have been undecided or have not even contemplated joining the available factions due to Rp concerns of their characters.

Not being a part of a major faction does not mean that you or a group of characters are invalid in the world's events. Nor does it mean that they will be excluded from the continuing/developing storyline of Sundren's lore and current events. I myself, play a character that has no real affiliation with a specific server faction due to his religious devotion to a currently "inert" God. This is due to the current events of the evolving storyline (surprise surprise ). However, it is still as rewarding and fun to make an impact through RP within the community. Even though I am conscious that my character will most likely never be directly part of any "World" changing events or factions.

My point, is too simply enjoy things on a personal level with the players and staff, without thinking so much on altering what is already in motion or adding on to it. There are opportunities and instances that the staff enacts player suggestions in which most of us are grateful for the attentiveness, but there is only so much player's can change since there are boundaries which we need to be conscious of.

[Ash]

"...Why do they have uber powerful (according to Ash before wipe) spirits surrounding the heart of the Grove?"

That was then. Now, like all the NPCs, they're simply devices that the DMs use as they wish. Lore's not been set down for the inhabitants of the grove, so it's far more likely they're just druids in animal-form.

""When Ash wanted to do the glade I could have told her no, but instead I allowed her creative freedom with it."

This is one of the best aspects of developing for Sundren. It's a high-quality mod which I approach professionally, but it isn't a paying profession. Something Saulus and I have both learnt from butting heads a number of times over the months is that I'm a mapper who needs some creative freedom in order to enjoy myself, and he's the project manager who has a design. We meet in the middle more often now than we used to and both get a lot out of it. He's right he can say no, and does so.

However, whilst there may be some content for druids/rangers/elves being added,that doesn't include a sanctioned faction. That doesn't stop players creating something themselves. And it certainly doesn't mean those players are getting ignored.

[Ithildin]

So basically.. unless you're human or evil or a rogue theres not really a faction that fits your character? Back before the wipe I was really excited about becoming a member of the druid circle then of course the switch happened and that was taken away quickly. I had been looking forward to doing quests and joining their faction when the system was finally done since its really the only type that would have fit my characters.