RP Tip - The Paladin

[Bear_Warrior]

GBX's definitions are concise, his reasoning sound, and his explanations clear- on all points in this thread.

[Bear_Warrior]

Detect Evil~

Oh, didn't notice a second page of the thread.

Detect Evil is touchy, and like wire taps- the who and when they are allowed is often misunderstood in general, and can be misrepresented to turn public opinion. For example few people recall that warrantless wire-tapping was authorized by the White House in the 90's in American Urban areas where there were suspected drug dealers. Only recently has it become a political issue. Point is and was made that both wire-tapping and detect evil can be abused from a gaming stand point at least.

Detect Evil is an ability and does require concentration, but is not a spell cast on someone. If it was a spell cast on a person then if becomes intrusive like a policeman searching your pockets because they're full and he wants to see whats in them. Even a good or neutrally aligned person would take offense to it being cast on them because it would be the same as though they were being accused of fraud, lying, or being a spy. But since it is an ability I would say its more like a policeman who is trained to practice something called "threat assessment" where they look at a person in a way that is circumspect, not judgmental, to determine whether a person or a situation is dangerous. It's they're job to evaluation people and situations for the publics well-being and for their own safety. Ever hear of policemen killed doing a routine traffic stop? You never know where the danger will come from or from whom.

Examples of Detect Evil-
1) Pally walks into a bar (not a joke, but could be) he knows that his righteous nature gives him away as an agent of good (aura of courage or whatever) so he uses his innate ability to detect the presence of evil to determine if or how careful he must be in that place. If he determines that the patrons at the corner table in the back are evil he knows to be wary of them, but he also knows that according to the laws he represents and defends that it doesn't give him the right to execute them or publicly slander them.
2) Pally is traveling, maybe with a party. On the road there are woods, old farm houses, hills, all sorts of places evil monsters or bandits could be lying in wait. He would be a fool not to use his ability to detect evil to avoid an ambush or a surprise attack. If someone in his party turns out to be evil he will watch them to see they don't commit any crime while he is around or he would likely excuse himself from participating with that group if he feared his reputation would be affect by being in the company of that person. Remember, the Pally's reputation IS important because everyone knows he is favored by his deity and thus represents his god on the field.
3) Pally is walking the streets at night, thats when pickpockets, muggers, and worse come out of their holes... Detect Evil could save his life or someone else's. Most times the mere presence of another set of eyes is a crime deterrent, and that's a proven fact. That's why people look over their shoulder to see if anyone is watching before they steal something or - key another person's car...

As for spamming it or using it every time you meet someone? That's a killjoy and an RP killer like Lollercide said. I haven't a problem with it being used, but does it fit the context of the situation? I advise exercising moderation in its use. But please keep using it, its part of the reason evil character hate Pally, since there's little they can slip by a vigilant paladin unnoticed.

[sharringtonm]

Bear, I think you were spoiled by my old Detect Evil. I didn't write the one on Sundren right now.

The detect evil on Sundren works like so... you click the feat target a person and it tells if their evil. Plain, simple, and to the point.

I know my old one was the whole PNP cone based, 3 rounds of concentration, etc but this one was here before I came here.


This Detect evil doesn't scan the whole bar, this one you have to target someone in particular.

[Bear_Warrior]

This Detect evil doesn't scan the whole bar, this one you have to target someone in particular. ~sharringtonm

Rape! Who wants to get molested by a paladin just because they have a few cross words with them?

No wonder they are getting so hot about it...

Is there any discussion about revising it?

[Dark presence]

I'd like to point out that the way Bear described evil, I'd say its directly analogous to racial profiling. Just because someone is evil doesn't mean they are going to take a crack at a paladin or anyone else for that matter.

Detecting evil also does zero to warn you about the possible threats from every other alignment, and a paladin who detects no evil and thinks they can just trust everyone in sight is going to get hurt.

Anyways I'll stop before I go on and on about paladins and alignment like I might.

[rustediron]

Selling protection from alignment wands - 50 charges for only 3k!

[Gamling]

Nulinus's priorities form this order.

1.Doing good deeds and protecting others
2.Being a dwarf.
3.Trying to stray from chaos(difficult for me )

[Chiangtao]

Another point about Detect Evil that bear raised: being a feat, when it is being used, it isn't "cast." People wouldn't perceive you using it--it doesn't require chanting or moving your hands, just concentration.

[nickbeat]

Yeah, but can't you feel that detection, perhaps with a spellcraft roll to sense it. If a character has protection from evil ready, can it be presumed that they use it to block the attempt?

It would really blow if you had to constantly cast protection from good all the time just to meet this RP requirement.

[Jaeram]

If you try to override it like that I think the paladins would be getting slighted then, because in that case no one would ever be able to tell many spell casters alignments, I know since it's only a level 1 spell Orrick almost always has one ready if he's not in "ok, it's specific battle time" spell strategy. For a lot of people it's just one of those general spells, so if you don't actually have to cast it, it kind of breaks detect evil.

[Dark presence]

I do not think a paladin can ever cast this without a certain giveaway. The concentration should be a dead giveaway to any character knowledgeable about the paladin's ability. The way I see it, they can't do much but stare for 18s if they want all the information, a lot longer if they have to look around the room and do the full spell for evil characters in other parts.


"Who's that jerk in the shiney armor, with the thousand yard stare?"

"Heh. Shiney armor, thousand yard stare. Kid, thats a pallydin. They can stare into yer soul and know if you've been naughty. Have ya been naughty?"

Obviously not everyone should know about it, but its not something that would be a well kept Sharran secret. Clerics should probably be able to deduce what is going on quickly, since they can all cast the spell too. Lore spellcraft would probably be appropriate to figure it out.

[Bear_Warrior]

In Reply

"I'd like to point out that the way Bear described evil, I'd say its directly analogous to racial profiling."
~Dark presence

"Racial Profiling" though viewed unethical by some decried unjust by others (especially by those caught at a result of its employment) is in fact used whether justly or not In-Game and coincidentally in RL as well. I did not make the rules, the laws, or law enforcement procedures in-game or out.
Playing an evil character or a race renowned for its evil acts will have it's risks, and possible consequences. If one is uncomfortable with that they should make a good or neutrally aligned character of one of the more commonly accepted races. "When in Rome, do as the Romans."

Laws of Sundren
* Regarding Drow

Drow are wicked distant cousins of the fair elven folk, dark-skinned being from underground. Because of their evil nature and the persistent crimes they have been committing, all drow are disallowed from entering incorporated towns and military camps in Sundren. Drow who enter a town or military camp unlawfully will be apprehended, and may be imprisoned, beaten, banished, or executed. They receive no trial unless such is recommended by a court of law.

http://www.sundren.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2187

"The concentration should be a dead giveaway to any character knowledgeable about the paladin's ability."
~Dark presence

IF you already know IC that he is a paladin you may still only guess at what is going on in someone's head, otherwise you're using OOC info and exploiting a peculiarity of the game's mechanics. Normally he should just appear to be thinking like anyone else unless he is trying to intimidate you with his piercing "thousand yard stare". Not everyone's face pinches or their tongue out sticks to concentrate. When a spell caster concentrates on casting a spell does he get all glassy eyed and spacey looking? Probably not, because it's a mental or spiritual exercise, not a physically demanding one.

Server Rules
"Meta-gaming
Meta-gaming is the use of information obtained out of character in character. This is unfair to other roleplayers and if problems arise a DM will handle the situation."

http://www.sundren.org/forum/faq.php?faq=gameplay#faq_gameplay_metagaming

Because of the mechanics of it here though it seems an intrusive/over act when it really might be better if it operated more like passive radar, where you're receiving "vibes" rather than as an active sonar ping that sets everyone's teeth on edge when it's used. I can sympathize though, I've played all alignments, and I have been meta-gamed by well meaning "near-do-wells" who's idea of RP was a little bit looser than mine.

It seems as though you're being defensive because your preference runs along the utilization of the more questionable sort of classes and races proffered to us. Well you needn't be so with me. I can empathize with both sides of this issue, and I thought that my second post regarding the question asking about a revision of the detect evil feat had made that apparent.

"Clerics should probably be able to deduce what is going on quickly, since they can all cast the spell too."
~Dark presence

A cleric spell on the other hand is another issue altogether. The casting of a spell for the purpose of discerning information about an individual is an overt act and should set off flags, bells, and whistles. However, we had been discussing a feat of a specific class; that of paladin, some of the class feats are automatic- not even requiring one to think about them (aura of courage, etc...). But, if your point was that you despise the paladin class or feel that those who play it execute sub-par RP then your intention has been conveyed more than adequately enough. Though calling me out by name wasn't really necessary, unless you were seeking clarification on the view I was expressing.

[sharringtonm]

As i said, you were spoiled by the old detect evil Bear.

You got used to the whole first round, telling you "yes there is evil in the area" then the second round picking out who it was, and the third round telling you how strong an aura they possessed. I Loved watching the paladin walk into the bar, use it and watch half the bar walk past him when they saw it so that they were out of the area before it picked them out specificly. That was great.

[Dark presence]

The point about "alignment" profling was twofold. First its something that is arguably wrong to even do, from the analogy itself. Secondly, its trying to point out that not every evil character is the same, not even by a long shot!

Bob the hairtrigger killer is scary, being aptly named and murdering people for the smallest slights. But Marge the vengeful warrior who brutally, painfully, and viciously kills and tortures the enemies of her homeland is no threat to those of her homeland. And Wendy the repentant soul may have done hundreds of evil things in her past and is tainted still by her actions, but she is repentant and is trying to correct her evil ways. But all of those people look exactly the same with detect evil. You can't tell who could be a serious, imminent danger and who might actually be quite trustworthy and helpful. I'm of the opinion detect evil is largely pointless unless you're looking for a fiend or cleric in disguise.



Nextly, I'm not suggesting anyone use OOC information to learn anything. But IC information is not the black hole that some people like to think it is. Start doing long division in your head and tell me its not obvious you're concentrating hard on something. Now stare at the second hand of a clock for 18s. Its noticeable.

Could they just be staring off into space for some reason? Sure...but when you have a lot of other signs, say polished armor, a prominent holy symbol, and possibly other people waiting on your word (to say nothing of being a known paladin)....well what do you think the conclusion is going to be?

If you want it to be less obvious, then be less obvious! If all a paladin does is use their feat or widget with no emoting at all, don't expect any sophisticated responses from your victims. Try emoting *Stares off into the distance* *Slowly scans the horizon* or whatever and then toss in detect evil somewhere in there.

I have never seen any paladin do anything more than simply use their feat or widget, however it is implemented, on any server. They don't emote it and that is not RP. Their behavior is arguably ICly noticeable and needs to be accounted for IC. That is my opinion.



And finally on the mechanics, detect evil for paladins is a spell like ability. This, going by the PHB, means that yes it is mentally activated, not verbally or somatically (So yes, I can agree it should be much less obvious, relegated more to the area of cryptic emotes). It can't be counterspelled. It DOES provoke an attack of opportunity. It CAN be interrupted and dispelled. It takes a standard action to activate + the concentration for however long you want to detect evil. It does not work in areas where magic is suppressed. And it is definitely not passive.

[Gairun]

First, your premise is wrong, profiling is not wrong. That may be your opinion, but thats all it is.

Second, of those three 'Evil' people you listed, only one would be considered evil according to DnD rules.

Third, I can appear to be completely asleep and do long division in my head. So saying a well trained Paladin has to emote something falls flat. If they are anything more then a young greenhand they can Detect Evil in their sleep without anyone knowing it.