RP Tip - The Paladin

[GodBeastX]

I did a tip on Weapon Masters awhile back. Now paladins are up.

Paladins are the embodiment of Good and Order. Foremost good. Paladins cannot commit a single evil act, even a small one. They can, however, commit chaotic ones to a degree, therefore paladins are about good above order.

Paladins cannot lie, cheat, steal, bully, sacrifice, fight dirty, use poisons, and other such actions. Doing so means you are not a paladin. Paladins are always ready to sacrifice themselves for others to save them from being killed (Evil excluded of course, but maybe Ilmater paladins still would XD). Paladins cannot become afraid. They cannot be intimidated. They will not flee from battle out of fear, they never flee, they fall back However, just because you are not afraid does not mean you aren't aware of your limits, remember that. Paladins will never try to start conflicts needlessly between others or revel in chaos. And all paladins pretty much consider each other brothers, even in other faiths. They are a united front of good doers.


In sundren paladins have a feat "Detect Evil" which will allow them to detect motives of an individual. Be aware of the varying degrees of evil. We discussed this in another thread. This tool is so Paladins can make better moral decisions. Paladins will NEVER associate with known evil. If you detect their alignment and it's evil, you're not going to be friends with them at all.

Players being detected, we made it so the spell "Protection from Good" will block the Paladin's ability to detect your alignments.

The general fun with playing a Paladin is the struggle to try to maintain the paladin code. That's the powerful part of it's RP. And trust me, it can get difficult. But taking this patiently and really analyzing situations (Paladins generally have wisdom) you can find alot of fun in the RP.

Remember, you're not just a warrior for your god, you're a warrior of righteousness and the people.

Edit:

Paladins also are not racists. Racism is an evil practice.

[Brygun]

Its that Paladin's code GBX mentioned that drives what you do.

I recall in earlier years and elswhere, EYAE, playing a Paladin of Torm.

There was materials needed for a ritual to save the world that would require doing some nasty and questionable deeds. However, the head of the area did agree it needed to be done. So being a Paladin of Loyalty and Duty went out and did those things... like kill a good dragon to get its part though did first explain and ask for it. Staff there got some questionable comments from other players. They pointed out my PC was the "duty and loyalty" type of Paladin... was that what they where doing? The answer was yes.

Had I played a Paladin of a different diety would have been different.

Tyr, justice, probably would have considered killing the dragon for its bits as unjust as the creature had done no wrong.

Helm, protection, mixed views... protecting the world vs protecting the dragon.

Red Knight... hmm... calculated loss. One dragon to save all the dragons and other beings the world. An acceptable battle strategy.

and so on.

[GodBeastX]

Unfortunately, on Sundren, if you would have killed a good dragon to save the world, you would lose your paladinhood. Sorry, Evil acts are never justified. However, you may have been able to attone for it, I don't know the rules on attonement.

[GodBeastX]

Although I would think a Gold Dragon would sacrifice themselves to save all the other dragons anyway or the world. Gold Dragons == Good Guys after all.

[aleksei_aiden]

I believe the rules of attonement is an attonement spell that is given through a cleric of that same diety that the paladin worships. They first have to complete a task that is given to them by their diety or by the church (if I recall correctly) then they can atone for their evil blasphemy!

If anyone has the source books containing the clerical spell: Attonement, please post the details and we can probably find a way to have that added to some extent.

[GodBeastX]

Alright, did the research. For your reading enjoyment:

Atonement
Abjuration

Level: Clr 5, Drd 5

Components: V, S, M, F, DF, XP

Casting Time: 1 hour

Range: Touch

Target: Living creature touched

Duration: Instantaneous

Saving Throw: None

Spell Resistance: Yes
This spell removes the burden of evil acts or misdeeds from the subject. The creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds. If the atoning creature committed the evil act unwittingly or under some form of compulsion, atonement operates normally at no cost to you. However, in the case of a creature atoning for deliberate misdeeds and acts of a knowing and willful nature, you must intercede with your deity (requiring you to expend 500 XP) in order to expunge the subject?s burden. Many casters first assign a subject of this sort a quest (see geas/quest) or similar penance to determine whether the creature is truly contrite before casting the atonement spell on its behalf.

Atonement may be cast for one of several purposes, depending on the version selected.

Reverse Magical Alignment Change: If a creature has had its alignment magically changed, atonement returns its alignment to its original status at no cost in experience points.

Restore Class: A paladin who has lost her class features due to committing an evil act may have her paladinhood restored to her by this spell.

Restore Cleric or Druid Spell Powers: A cleric or druid who has lost the ability to cast spells by incurring the anger of his or her deity may regain that ability by seeking atonement from another cleric of the same deity or another druid. If the transgression was intentional, the casting cleric loses 500 XP for his intercession. If the transgression was unintentional, he does not lose XP.

Redemption or Temptation: You may cast this spell upon a creature of an opposing alignment in order to offer it a chance to change its alignment to match yours. The prospective subject must be present for the entire casting process. Upon completion of the spell, the subject freely chooses whether it retains its original alignment or acquiesces to your offer and changes to your alignment. No duress, compulsion, or magical influence can force the subject to take advantage of the opportunity offered if it is unwilling to abandon its old alignment. This use of the spell does not work on outsiders or any creature incapable of changing its alignment naturally.

Though the spell description refers to evil acts, atonement can also be used on any creature that has performed acts against its alignment, whether those acts are evil, good, chaotic, or lawful.

Note: Normally, changing alignment is up to the player. This use of atonement simply offers a believable way for a character to change his or her alignment drastically, suddenly, and definitively.

Material Component: Burning incense.

Focus: In addition to your holy symbol or normal divine focus, you need a set of prayer beads (or other prayer device, such as a prayer wheel or prayer book) worth at least 500 gp.

XP Cost: When cast for the benefit of a creature whose guilt was the result of deliberate acts, the cost to you is 500 XP per casting (see above).



Geas/Quest
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Language-Dependent, Mind-Affecting]

Level: Brd 6, Clr 6, Sor/Wiz 6

Casting Time: 10 minutes

Target: One living creature

Saving Throw: None
This spell functions similarly to lesser geas, except that it affects a creature of any HD and allows no saving throw.

Instead of taking penalties to ability scores (as with lesser geas), the subject takes 3d6 points of damage each day it does not attempt to follow the geas/quest. Additionally, each day it must make a Fortitude saving throw or become sickened. These effects end 24 hours after the creature attempts to resume the geas/ quest.

A remove curse spell ends a geas/quest spell only if its caster level is at least two higher than your caster level. Break enchantment does not end a geas/quest, but limited wish, miracle, and wish do.

Bards, sorcerers, and wizards usually refer to this spell as geas, while clerics call the same spell quest.

Geas, Lesser
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Language-Dependent, Mind-Affecting]

Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4

Components: V

Casting Time: 1 round

Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

Target: One living creature with 7 HD or less

Duration: One day/level or until discharged (D)

Saving Throw: Will negates

Spell Resistance: Yes
A lesser geas places a magical command on a creature to carry out some service or to refrain from some action or course of activity, as desired by you. The creature must have 7 or fewer Hit Dice and be able to understand you. While a geas cannot compel a creature to kill itself or perform acts that would result in certain death, it can cause almost any other course of activity.

The geased creature must follow the given instructions until the geas is completed, no matter how long it takes.

If the instructions involve some open-ended task that the recipient cannot complete through his own actions the spell remains in effect for a maximum of one day per caster level. A clever recipient can subvert some instructions:

If the subject is prevented from obeying the lesser geas for 24 hours, it takes a ?2 penalty to each of its ability scores. Each day, another ?2 penalty accumulates, up to a total of ?8. No ability score can be reduced to less than 1 by this effect. The ability score penalties are removed 24 hours after the subject resumes obeying the lesser geas.

A lesser geas (and all ability score penalties) can be ended by break enchantment, limited wish, remove curse, miracle, or wish. Dispel magic does not affect a lesser geas.



My Notes

Essentially a cleric of the god the paladin serves gives them a chance to redeem themselves. Obviously the spell comes from the god so it's not like it's up to the cleric. A quest may be placed on the paladin if they did it willfully which forces them to enact whatever the cleric asks of them.

[aleksei_aiden]

Awesome GBX, you got to it before I did. This will help explain and give more RP to those nasty naughty paladins who don't follow their alignment or the code of a paladin =P

[Dark presence]

Personally I have always hated paladins, as a class. They don't inspire a particularly realistic feeling to me, as it almost requires a personality defined by the class. They don't really fit well in FR either, where alignment is a secondary thing to the deities. Of course they are written into it and all of that, but good, as a concept, isn't something anyone can draw power from in FR, so to uphold good above your deity makes absolutely no sense. Of course the relevant deities are fine with it, but I still find it silly.

Anyways, that aside, I would disagree with some of what GBX says. Of course I'm not a DM and have no say in anything, but it might be food for thought.

In my view, to be a super-good anything, you have to jump in front of the bullet even for evil people, in certain circumstances. The biggest reason is because even if a paladin detects evil, they have no idea what that person has done, why they did it, or even whether they want to atone for it. To the paladin, that person should still be considered innocent, until proven guilty. And there is always the chance to atone or redeem that person. A paladin is never judge, jury, or executioner, unless they are forced to defend themselves or another in a fight to the death.

As paladins are also there to uphold order, in general, trials to determine guilt should be the expected norm for them. And that means to fight evil, they should be going out, offering every opportunity to surrender to their foe, and taking them back alive to stand trial, definitely not shooting first and asking questions later.

And back to detect evil, if a paladin detects evil, strictly speaking they are not supposed to befriend the person. However, there is a massive difference between befriending someone, and trying to learn why that person is evil, and helping them to stop their evil ways. The best victory is when you turn your foe into your friend. If a paladin detects evil, they should probably get as close as they can to that person, but being a paladin, making it absolutely clear that they are concerned for their soul and yada yada. Or at the very least sic a cleric on them to try and fix the error of their ways. But, in my view, to shun someone entirely and treat them like dirt for the sole reason that they are evil (and you have no evidence of them doing anything evil, or even suspicions) is itself inherently evil. Evil is prejudice and hate and treating people less than human.

Those are just my views, though, and they may not reflect the decisions and rules of the DM staff.

[aleksei_aiden]

Thats a good argument darksoul. I think it has validity too, and it also is logical in the sense of what paladins should/not do.

[GodBeastX]

In my view, to be a super-good anything, you have to jump in front of the bullet even for evil people, in certain circumstances. The biggest reason is because even if a paladin detects evil, they have no idea what that person has done, why they did it, or even whether they want to atone for it. To the paladin, that person should still be considered innocent, until proven guilty. And there is always the chance to atone or redeem that person. A paladin is never judge, jury, or executioner, unless they are forced to defend themselves or another in a fight to the death.

This comes from people not understanding what I am saying and what evil is in the end. You don't turn evil from one bad act. If a paladin detects you as evil, you have been repeatedly ruining people's lives for whatever reason. The evil aura is a mechanic of the world, the creators said "Let this vile person be marked with an aura". We're not talking about taking a peace of bubblegum and hiding it, we're talking about jacked up shit.

Then you have to consider paladin detection has levels of that aura, I'm pretty sure a paladin is going to jump in front of an arrow for a "Faintly Evil" person, depending on the circumstances. I doubt a skeleton attacking an evil guy the paladin is going to say "That guy deserves it." But if the guy is "Overwhelmingly Evil" and someone is taking him out as a result of his evil. Why would a paladin die in his stead? Makes little sense. Evil to me when I Said it wasn't a "Catch all" but I'm hoping people have more common sense than that.

And back to detect evil, if a paladin detects evil, strictly speaking they are not supposed to befriend the person. However, there is a massive difference between befriending someone, and trying to learn why that person is evil, and helping them to stop their evil ways. The best victory is when you turn your foe into your friend. If a paladin detects evil, they should probably get as close as they can to that person, but being a paladin, making it absolutely clear that they are concerned for their soul and yada yada. Or at the very least sic a cleric on them to try and fix the error of their ways. But, in my view, to shun someone entirely and treat them like dirt for the sole reason that they are evil (and you have no evidence of them doing anything evil, or even suspicions) is itself inherently evil. Evil is prejudice and hate and treating people less than human.

Of course paladins would give people chance to surrender and redeem themselves. I look at this like police. Police don't run out and shoot a criminal and then say "He was bad so I took him out!" Only if the criminal is violent or putting people in danger do you do this. You take them back alive to stand scrutiny, maybe get alignment shifted to good, or whatever happens in the case of the person. However, a paladin should never "Befriend" evil.

To me if you are befriending evil you are basically making it known you are okay with their actions, even if you are not saying "I'm okay with your actions." They go "Look, I'm evil, but I can still get paladin buddies!" People think befriending others saves them, but 90% of cases you end up staining yourself. If you see you bad people hungry, feed, them. If you see them shivering in the cold, give them a blanket. You treat them as a human, but you don't make them your companions. Remember, there is NO reason anyone SHOULD be evil. Doesn't matter if they were the sole survivor of a raid of cyclops and the pain drove them to evil, there's no reason for the evil in the eyes of good gods and thus not in the eyes of a paladin.

I myself have played paladins, and they will speak with evil, try to reason with them, but under no circumstance do they seek them out for companionship. This is what I meant. You don't force them to suffer, this is evil. But shunning someone for their choices (Remember, you can only be evil if you chose to be) is not evil. And to say "Shunning someone for being evil is evil" is off base. And often evil people try to sway paladin's brains with that sort of message "You're being a tyrannical by forcing us to be nice to people!" Only twisted and evil people think this way.

[Satoshi]

Thinking evil thoughts does not make a person evil. Actively and unrepentingly serving evil does. Murderers, rapists, black cultists, devil-worshippers, demon-summoners - the list goes on and on as to what is evil. What is NOT evil, however, includes the spectrum of neutral and good, which is by definition almost twice as much. It takes some seriously heinous acts to fall that far, and the hold of evil is a smothering thing.

Certainly, the tools of Good are mercy, compassion, and redemption - but forgiveness is earned, not given freely. Those who commit sinful acts must be expected to serve theri penance for such dark deeds, whether it be public service for the remainder of one's life, rotting in a jail cell, or facing the final music. A truly redeemed soul, even when going to the executioner's block, will know that they have been forgiven and a much better fate awaits them than would had they clung to their old ways.

Just my two cents.

[MrDeadman]

I have had a couple questions over the last few days pop into my mind about subjects that were touched on briefly in this Thread. I would like concrete answers for these. Keep in Mind I have not played D&D pnp in many years, nor have I ever read a 3E or 3.5E book. Thank you.

Question 1. Is Detect Evil an activated skill? Or, is it something that is on all the time?
Question 2. If it is an activated skill, from a paladin stand point wouldn't it be morally reprehensible to cast it on someone without permission, as this is an invasion of someones personal privacy? (I ask because of an old Dragon magazine article that said yes to this for 2E comparing it to illegal FBI and CIA phone Taps LOL).

[Dark presence]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm

There is detect evil for you, straight from the PHB. Paladins can use it at will, but they should still have to concentrate to get the actual information from it.

On your second question, its highly contentious. There are a lot of complicated issues with alignment and how it is treated, and that really gets to the center of all of them. If there's an official answer here you'll probably hear it, but I'm not sure of it.

Personally I would say it is an evil act to search someone like that without cause, because you are denying them their privacy, dignity, and respect as a sentient living being. But I don't make any rules here, so don't listen to me.


What I do know is that Protection from Good is supposed to block detect evil on Sundren. I'm not sure if it actually does or not. So if you're not one of the four classes who can get that spell, you don't have any possible defense.

[undeadsteak]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm

There is detect evil for you, straight from the PHB. Paladins can use it at will, but they should still have to concentrate to get the actual information from it.

On your second question, its highly contentious. There are a lot of complicated issues with alignment and how it is treated, and that really gets to the center of all of them. If there's an official answer here you'll probably hear it, but I'm not sure of it.

Personally I would say it is an evil act to search someone like that without cause, because you are denying them their privacy, dignity, and respect as a sentient living being. But I don't make any rules here, so don't listen to me.


What I do know is that Protection from Good is supposed to block detect evil on Sundren. I'm not sure if it actually does or not. So if you're not one of the four classes who can get that spell, you don't have any possible defense.

And now we wish for protection against good rings. I wonder if they still exist, anyways... Yeah, what dark said.

[Lollercide]

Yeah, this ability and it's 'issues' came to my attention while RPing my paladin. At one point in time (for about two hours) I spammed the hell out of it thinking, "Heh heh, this is cool." however I look back at it now and think of how big of an RP killer I was.

So for now I still use it on suspicious characters, but at the same time aim not to spread "OMG THIS DUDE IS EVIL AND SHIT" when I detect it - Backing this up with the thought that a Paladin is both good and lawful - It's simply not righteous (lawful) to persecute/slander someone's name on a suspicion.

I've even started to avoid telling anyone - Especially PCs about these feeling to avoid RP killing. However.. I do try and follow up on these feelings.. Find more information on the character to shed light on my feelings and avoid partying with him due to the posibility of his evil behavior and so forth. It simply suits the vigilant behavior of a Paladin to do so.

Also, I've decided (completely personal choice) that I will RP cast (e.g. Hano closes his eyes in concentration, focusing towards the general direction of [x]) and then wait 12 seconds (two rounds) before I actually cast it. I believe this will give a good chance for the character to cast whatever spell he needs to protect himself from it. Which would still leave a great amount of suspicion, but a sly evil character will be able to think of a good excuse for why he cast a spell or drank a potion.