OOC and IC - Why do you hate me?!

[GodBeastX]

I wanted to open up a discussion because this keeps trickling past my desk of paperwork lately. People disliking other people OOC'ly.

We on the Sundren staff try to be as unbiased as possible when it comes to characters and players. Although people joining the server without reading anything and poking us on DM chat asking "Why can't I get in the server with my L/G tiefling paladin of Torm?" gets irritating at times. <_< >_>

However, players sometimes don't seem to be able to be unbiased alot of times. IC actions should NEVER become OOC animosity. Chances are if you are starting to hate people OOC then you are the one in the wrong, not the other person. On the rare ocasion people break rules or push them to the limits so you end up getting upset, but even then people are generally not doing it to give you a bad day. So I wanted to raise a few points people need to remember.

1) Some people do not know FR and D&D as much as you. Some of you are scary to me with how deep your knowledge of FR and D&D is. I wonder if it's all you eat and sleep at times. But that's why I often have to reference you guys to understand more about the world. I got books I read and study to understand, but you can't expect every player to be able to do the same. Some simply own NWN2 and want to play online and roleplay, should you treat them as inferior or badmouth them as they stuggle to learn what you've been studying half of some of your lives? I definitely don't. Do you try to guide people or do you beat it into their heads?

2) Some people are not as skilled at RP as you. Some are VERY new to the whole concept, Sundren being the first PW for them. Do you treat them as inferior because they don't have the talents? Or do you set and example and offer friendly help when called upon?

3) Conflicts are going to happen. Sorry people, it's the way things work. You have goals, and other players have goals that stop yours. Whether it's "I'm going to be the best wizard ever!" and some guy shouts at you because he feels "Magic is too dangerous to wield!" You guys are going to be at odds. You can take that fight OOC "OMG THAT GUY SHOULD KNOW MAGIC IS NOT DANGEROUS!!!" and then hate him for what his character does, or you can go with the RP and have a rival which can lead to some RP.


Some tips I have found that help alot, not all of these you have to do:

* If something gets particularly heated where your characters are at odds. Sometimes just saying "I'm not trying to pick on you, but my character's a slowmo jerk " can make someone enjoy a friendly OOC relationship with their IC bitter enemies.

* Don't try to do ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING IN YOUR POWER to screw up your enemies. Sometimes letting them slide can help the RP. Be the loser sometimes. Get headbutted by Hrogash and fall on your back while he walks away laughing. It can be fun to RP being a loser more than a winner sometimes. Don't try to work your butt off to bring people to the authorities ALL THE TIME, because chances are, we'll let them go depending on how they were caught and how they've been adding to the server. We're not out to try to permakill people, so should you be?

* Keep in mind who the other player is. People new to the server might be struggling with lore, FR, and many other things. Immediately snapping on them and making an already frustrating time more frustrating can cause them to groan at the thought of more RP.

* Stay unbiased and IC! STAY IC WITH YOUR ACTIONS! If someone gets to be your enemy IC, don't use OOC ways to mess them up! This will be where you cross the line with me. I will hunt you down, and put fiberglass under your fingernails.

* Remember, while FR has large amounts of lore, Sundren is still an adaptation of that lore. Some things we do in Sundren may not be exactly how D&D FR does it because some things just don't work out on PWs with their close knit hero/villain base. P&P has a small group of high levels running around. Sundren has over a thousand. As you can see, we are kind of forced to change up some things. So while what you do in P&P might make sense, in Sundren it might not.

[Xanderleo]

This is a really good post.

I've sent tells or private messages to people before to make sure they get that I'm not really picking on them or being curt, rude, ill-tempered, offensive, etc....that it is in fact my character. Sometimes it's not needed, other times it is, but personally I prefer to err on the side of caution.

[ThePaganKing]

Well said and everyone should read this post!

[Rhifox]

I mostly keep the hate separate though there are times that I get... frustrated OOCly, at the least. I willfully admit that my character is based upon my own personality almost entirely, so things that make her mad are generally the same things that make me mad. While hatred on a 'other character hates me and thus I hate them back ICly' thing is something I enjoy out-of-characterly (I love drama in that regard. All the Red Wizard hate drama is very cool these days), it's things that annoy and upset my character that also tend to annoy and upset me IRL... namely, characters that act particularly retarded. Characters that are clearly being RPed in a way to be retarded via the way they talk, the things they say, etc, then I'm sitting there IRL with my eyebrow twitching and my jaw clenched just as much as my character is. I don't hate the RPer on the other side for it, but I will freely admit that such characters annoy the shit out of me on an IRL level.

Another thing is bad RP. It gets to me a lot. I admit to being an elitist so I get particularly annoyed by people who's RP is particularly bad or unrealistic. I don't hate-hate them, and won't get into arguments with them about it, but again, it's something that just makes me frustrated on an IRL level. Typically, cliches are the thing that annoy me the most. Even then, though, again, I usually have no problem with the person, but it still annoys me.

Get headbutted by Hrogash and fall on your back while he walks away laughing.

Or punched in the face by Hrogash and knocked unconscious with a concussion. Woo. *cough*

Playing the loser is almost always more fun than playing the winner, in my opinion.

[Infernal_Havok]

Its a game, people play to have some fun not create beef with others intentionally. If they did, I garuantee you that GBX has already removed them from the server post haste. People who believe that they are somehow superior Rp'ers than others are the real annoying asses that should reasses their sad lives. Err... reality check, being the bestest most FR knowledgable player on the server won't pay your rent.

Trust what the DMs and admins say, instead taking what you consider "bad RP" as a punch in face, roll with it. Try to guide the character/player if you can IC not with OOC yelling or condecending attitudes. If the player is that "bad" or doesn't take your suggestions, then fine. Leave them be, if their behavior is soo disruptive, once again I am sure they will be banned in no time at all. The point is, its not your jobs as players to police the server for "good rp" thats an admin and DM responsiblity.

How I define being a good player on a PW means to first, insure the enjoyment of all other players around me. Then second, enjoy playing out my objectives as a character. I never let my IC ambitions get in the way of spoiling someone elses fun without consulting them first, I don't care how OOC that sounds. have some courtesy and if it gets thrown back in your face... well then, roll with it and let the staff handle it without you encouraging it or stoking the hate. If you get angry, your taking this game waaay to seriously and I would advise that you once again reasses the priorities in your REAL LIFE.

[Rhifox]

Getting angry and annoyed happens, it's not about having 'problems with priorities in real life'. People with perfect lives get upset with things, it's a part of life.

Honestly, the 'I don't agree with your opinions so that means you have a sad real life while mine is picture perfect' argument is pretty pathetic. Attack someone's real life and making baseless accusations about them is not going to help stop OOC hate, either.

Also, just because you think someone has bad RP doesn't mean you police them and I'm upset that everyone seems to think that just because you may not like a person's quality of RP means automatically that you're going to be policing them and yelling at them. I get annoyed by people I consider to be bad RPers but I don't say anything to them... they'll either realize it on their own and improve or they won't (and giving advice rarely helps. It's a personal growth thing, in my opinion... they either want to improve and do so on their own or don't care and won't no matter the advice given). Everyone used to be a bad RPer at some point, it's a matter of experience and growing into it rather than being policed or advised.

[Infernal_Havok]

You misinterpret what I said in your last paragraph. I am totally against policing "bad Rp" in that sense, which is why I said the DMs can handle that part which is not up to me, but I don't go out of my way and try to ignore "bad rp'ers" or treat them like an invalid, which I have witnessed being done by elitist players. I give everyone the benefit of the doubt, I try to interact with them and include them if it is possible and IC.

The RP superiority is a pet peeve of mine and I don't see how anyone defends against what is obviously snobbery. I don't get upset when someone is being cheesey or cliche with their RP I work with it when I can. I take it for what its worth and help were I can, "IF I CAN". I also think players who get soo ANGRY or HATEFUL (not just annoyed) that they try to get other players banned or hated on DO HAVE a messed up sense of priorities to what they are trying to accomplish. There are far greater things to do with your time IG than to harass someone about how you perceive their RP or IC actions and trying to get them perma'killed or banned for OOC reasons.

Also even GBX stated "Chances are if you are starting to hate people OOC then you are the one in the wrong, not the other person." This is what I am portraying about people who get carried away with a GAME, which is really pathetic.

[Felnak]

This is a really good post.

I've sent tells or private messages to people before to make sure they get that I'm not really picking on them or being curt, rude, ill-tempered, offensive, etc....that it is in fact my character. Sometimes it's not needed, other times it is, but personally I prefer to err on the side of caution.

I agree... an excellent post. And as Xanderleo says, sending a tell to me that the char is not picking on my char.... makes it much easier to continue with the RP without escalating the animosity.

The whole "win" or "lose" analogy may not be so great, but I have seen this played out as... a sort of a draw, the aggressor sems to gain the advantage, or the aggressors is turned aside. Be flexible... you may win by losing!

[adventurer]

Well said GBX. Responses so far seem to illustrate some player perspectives. I have biases. My characters have biases. RP enjoyment may be had in nearly all situations.

Non-'tell' PvP and main-channel OOC comments are not rare on Sundren. So what? Is it grief ? May be or may be not. Doesn't affect me OOC. Actually, such behavior can have fun RP possibilites.

In many cases, players may play how they choose. DMs judgment seems sound on Sundren. Thank you DMs. : )

[Satoshi]

I once was very elitist, myself. I can tell you, Rhifox, that even you would have a hard time floating in the tight boat I used to run/run with. I've calmed down dramatically since I took time to reflect on it. I realized that roleplaying with a small, self-centered group of would-be perfectionists isn't really all that fun. I now take great joy in using my various knowledges, whether of the game-worlds, or general roleplaying, or of character developing strategies, and I try to offer what I can where I can. More often than not, the people who actually try and stick with it are the ones who, given time, will probably be better than you one day. Someone just has to give them a little help getting started.

Anyway, just my two cents.

[deepshades]

I play this game to have fun, that is the whole purpose.

This being said, if someone annoys me OOC or IC, I'm not going to ignore them entirely but I will go out of my way to avoid them as much as possible. I do get headaches from this sort of thing.

A headache isn't fun, nor is frustration. Losing 3k exp to a respawn death isn't nearly as horrific as my headaches.

[Rhifox]

I once was very elitist, myself. I can tell you, Rhifox, that even you would have a hard time floating in the tight boat I used to run/run with.

And I would ask here would you feel I am not doing well on (obviously not to be responded to here, but in a PM).

I've calmed down dramatically since I took time to reflect on it. I realized that roleplaying with a small, self-centered group of would-be perfectionists isn't really all that fun. I now take great joy in using my various knowledges, whether of the game-worlds, or general roleplaying, or of character developing strategies, and I try to offer what I can where I can. More often than not, the people who actually try and stick with it are the ones who, given time, will probably be better than you one day. Someone just has to give them a little help getting started.

I find RPing with lots of people is fine, it's just specific people that you 'prefer' to be around. Having more people around is just like what it does in real life, provides background and life even if you only hang out with certain people.

I still believe though that you can't really help people unless they already want to help themselves.

[Brenil]

Only person I ever got mad at in-game and OOC was Ember.

Do I really need to explain why?

Beyond that, I attempt to view each person as their character and not the actual person behind the monitor - even if more often than not the character is a scary reflection of said character (cough, Rhifox!).

I think the biggest problem I had adjusting to Sundren, which incidently was my first RP experience in my life, was how not to feel like a dumbass when speaking or acting. Maybe that's difficult to understand, but when you first run into people speaking in character about mundane things in a game, it's rather daunting. I first ran into this in NWN and was so weirded out I never played it online again. I attempted to give it another go in NWN 2 and lucky for me I found Sundren which has so far been much less intimdating (except for GBX I hate that guy!).

I agree with Rhifox on many points, especially the fact that people will eventually get better at RPing. I really don't have a clue to the quality of my RP, but I figure it's improved since I began and for those that actually are here to RP they'll correct their mistakes and move foward. In contrast those that are here to attempt to prove something or grind will quickly become bored once they reach their 'cap' and leave the real RPers to do business.

I see no reason to get angry in real life at any body except those who willfully attempt to annoy others - in character or out.

[undeadsteak]

I don't really "Hate" anybody here. I get annoyed with a few players, sure, but i don't totally ignore and try to pick fights with them or torment them.

[Gothic Rose]

Only person I ever got mad at in-game and OOC was Ember.

Do I really need to explain why?

I'm actually curious. I know that several people OOCly hate my character, and I suspect several OOCly hate me for playing her.

So I'm very curious. Because I play this game to have fun, and I do not intentionally attempt to annoy/piss off other players. Characters, though, yes. I know I distance myself from my character - she is not me, and an insult to her is not an insult to myself. However, not everyone remembers that distinction - which is one of the reasons GBX made his post I suppose.

I know I try to remain IC with my reactions. Hlaine, f'rex, was an insulting jerk (I love people who're willing to play jerks, btw) to Ember, so she began to hate him as he hated her - ICly. Much the same with other characters, like Sylloven, who Ember refuses to forgive for being a vampire. I see these as realistic views that people would take. Not everyone should get along ICly - if everyone was a happy bunny, then I wouldn't want to play here, because it would be incredibly boring. (And to note, I'm not picking on Hlaine and Sylloven or their players by mentioning them here, I'm just citing those characters as references )

Not everyone agrees with how things are done. Do other characters annoy me OOCly? Yes, they do. Do I hate them? No. Do I hate their players? No. Does everyone hate the characters I find annoying? No. Just as not everyone hates the characters you find annoying. I know some people hate Ember - others find her to be a laugh riot. Just like some people may hate, say... Hadavi, while others may love her. But we as players should never let that make us hate each other OOCly, and really, we should try to not have that affect our characters. I've had charries who really got along with characters I OOCly disliked. It's entirely possible. It's just about distancing your own motives and tastes, and utilizing your character's, because....

You are not your Character.