Ethrealness house rule

[Laurk]

So about that new house rule where you can't use spells on others while Ethreal. People who are ethreal can't cast spells on one another. So if for example this rule says that my healer can't use healing spells on anyone unless they are also ethreal, well the engine makes it so I can't cast healing spells on them when they are. Because of the Sanctuary Effect on combat medic healing spells, I used to have to drink dozens of invis potions every time I went anywhere to avoid being killed. Ethrealness finally negated that. Is that against the rules now?

So basically this house rule religates ethrealness to an escape spell or suprise attack spelll and can't be used by combat medics anymore to let them heal without getting butchered in high level combat?

Some of us RP that spell as greater sanctuary since it has nothing to do with ethrealness by the PH. You can't float. You can't pass through physical barriers in the material plane, you can't be attacked by ethreal creatures. On the other hand, it acts EXACTLY like greater sanctauary, even putting a "sanctuary" effect on you. We've had discussions about this in the past and it seemed most people didn't have a problem with this.

So I guess what im getting at is: Is this new house rule set and beyond debait?

[Valhalla]

It's put in place largely - I believe - because some Sundren-custom offensive spells don't break Etherealness like they should. Which means you can sit completely invulnerable while spamming them. Which, as you might imagine, is hilariously shitty to do in PvP.

Also Greater Sanctuary makes you ethereal, too.

[Laurk]

Also Greater Sanctuary makes you ethereal, too.

NWN never made much attempt to explain what it was. Level 1 Sanctuary was an abjuration spell that caused enemies to ignore you. If it "is" supposed to make you ethreal, they really don't impliment it well as it shares none of the traits of going ethreal by PnP. My PC depends utterly on being able to heal while ethreal. Im not going back to drinking an invis potion before every encounter so that the combat medic sanctuary effect doesn't get me killed. Its a shame people are able to abuse it, but Im afraid thats a deal breaker for me.

[[DM] Grinning Death]

Get a stoneskin, displacement, or cast some defensive wards. Using etherealness as a greater sanctuary is incorrect, because the spells are not the same. Nor do we have a greater sanctuary in the game.

I'm relatively positive that a level 20 cleric is fully able to deflect random blows, and be able to heal their allies without too much trouble.

[Valhalla]

NWN never made much attempt to explain what it was.

Description: The caster becomes ethereal. No other creature can detect the caster. Attacking or performing a hostile action will make the etherealness vanish.

That's what I was referring to.

And while I'm quoting stuff.

I'm relatively positive that a level 20 cleric is fully able to deflect random blows, and be able to heal their allies without too much trouble.

Abby isn't a level 20 cleric, she's 15/5 in a bad PrC that makes healing more difficult when it's supposed to be the feature of the class. When she heals someone they get a high-DC sanctuary applied to them, which makes the mobs hitting them re-target, which means Abby turns in to a fine red mist when the tank suddenly loses all aggro.

That's the basis for the complaint. It sucks, but I'd rather not have save-or-dies spammed at me from Ethereal, so yeah.

E: Also because the intent of the spell in PnP is for escape/travel purposes. Not to summon devils and undead and laugh while they destroy your enemies for you, or to sit around and heal your allies.

[[DM] Grinning Death]

But, she gets full spellcasting progression, giving her access to the full range of spells that a level 20 cleric does. The discussion isn't the PrC, because we're well aware of its problems, but the remedies that can be provided for it in light of the house rule.

The house rule is designed to prevent the unintended uses of spells, actions, etc. without the breaking of etherealness, because it was designed in a faulty manner that allows exploitation.

Using etherealness as a greater sanctuary is an exploit, albeit not in full vein of the usual exploitation. As such, I'd recommend using the other features of the cleric class (which, as stated, are provided pretty much in full) to negate the negative effects of the PrC until such a time as a DEV see's fit to fix it.

However, should she wish to get rid of the class levels, we can certainly see about re-leveling her if the full range of cleric spellcasting isn't able to offer a solution in light of the bugged class.

[Valhalla]

Didn't mean to come off as an ass, if I did

But yeah a fully buffed up cleric (especially one who maybe invests 10 ranks in UMD to use things like Stoneskin wands) should have very few survivability issues unless they've dumped their physical stats crazily. Which isn't a problem with the Class, a Spell, or the Mobs, but rather a player's personal choice.

[Laurk]

Yes my problems are player choice, not with the class. I choose to play with poverty & pacifism vows which means very limited gear, limited spells, no faction and terrible physical stats. This has never been a problem before because ive always been able to fullfill a role as a combat medic thanks to ethrealness and therefore didn't depend on powerful gear and combat-oriented spells. But it is "my" problem and not the servers. Sundren simply may not fit my kind of PC esspecially well mechanically with its changes. I really do consider limiting my spell list a part of role playing my character. While there are some buffs I use, im not sure what buffs are going to help much with 8 str, con & dex and no magic gear... at least without eating up my best curatives.

I could probably drop my combat medic levels, but I really do love the class. But with full agro going to my cleric, its not a matter of deflecting occassional blows, Ive been mobbed by everything that "was" on the tank a few times. Abby just isn't built to survive that, buffs or no buffs. Drinking invis constantly was a good "temporary" fix, but I really thought it was a bit strange to have to do, and I just don't want to go back to that.

But, my problems, not Sundrens.

[Torgar]

I like the new house rule, and it should not be changed back to how it was just because one person decided to make their class as hard as possible to play.

[Mournas]

I like the new house rule, and it should not be changed back to how it was just because one person decided to make their class as hard as possible to play.

I went through Whurest with a group unarmored as Andelain sitting in the back watching, just went for RP really. I think the only damage I really took was a bit from my shield other working as it should. So I agree, and even without gear on its pretty easy not to die. Just gotta be mindful of what is actually going on. I'm with Torgar on this, I like the new rule.

[Laurk]

In fairness Torgar, it wasn't esspecially hard to play my concept until ethrealness got changed. clicking to loot & take away HP isn't much differant than begging to loot and clicking to add HP in the greater scheme. Its when the "clicking to add HP" means dying that things get rough. I didn't know ethrealness would get changed, so I couldn't exactly plan around that eventuallity, not that I would have anyway.

I really don't want to join groups as a liability or observer only, and without access to faction gear, the combat medic class is the only thing that gives me that RP nitch I care about where the "heal skill" is concerned. Even though I have 5 feats that add to my heal skill score, any combat-oriented cleric with faction gear would match or beat Abby in that department without that combat medic class. So going straight cleric just makes me a weak cleric with an underwhelming healing skill. Hard to play RP an "Uber Healer" like that.

So by all means, please do not change on my account. I was hoping healing spells might get an exemption, esspecially given that the combat medic class is still broken. But its your server! I just wanted to make sure the decision was final before I decided what to do.

[cmosier]

The intent of the spell, according to 3.5, is that you cannot really affect the Material Plane while using this spell.

Your build is fine as is your character. I could take my guy and grind Whurest all day long or... I could grab River, Sandro, Dryn, Liana, and whoever else wants to come along and do the Time Warp in Hellstrom Castle.

I enjoy an in depth and quality character. Flaws included. :-)

[Aniril_Telin]

I'd be there, that sounds like one heck of a party. As for the effects, the missing control lines need to be added not only to custom spells but even sme of the vanilla ones which list as being extendable for example yet do not have the extend hooks in the script. There are flaws to the system, and a house rule is a quick and dirty patch up to address the issue. Ideally, having an intentional -off switch- for ethearealness would be ideal. assuming you are intending to use it to AI manage the sanctuary effect. Or lots and lots of invisibility potions are another option. Just some thoughts...

[Doubtful]

See, I'd happily hack off the sanctuary part of the healing scripts, but I don't know the first thing about coding or where to even start with the delete key.

I do sympathise with your plight Laurk, but once you start making house rules complex or adding exceptions then you end up heading into all sorts of issues.

[Elusa]

Etherealness is fine with the new rule, but like Laurk said, the combat medic class needs fixing. There's one or two threads on that subject.