Ethrealness house rule

[wangxiuming]

Am i missing something? Because the description of greater sanctuary in nwn1 (per the nwnwiki) says "the caster becomes ethereal" ...

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Greater_sanctuary

[Torgar]

Because it's a 3.5 spell that has RP aspects you don't use. Sorry if they only really work with a DM around, but that's just how things are. There is NO greater sanctuary. And the spell wasn't outlawed, it was stated we need to use it the way it's supposed to work. A lot of spells don't work as intended from the PnP version of them. Regenerate heals 10% hp a round for 1 minute, 2 minutes if extended. That's not at all what the PnP spell does, but since we don't lose limbs mechanically, they made it a stronger heal. Greater invisibility shouldn't give 50% concealment if the person has see invisibility. But it does. Greater missile storm is supposed to only affect each person with a 2d6 missile, ONCE, up to ten people. Etherealness actually makes it so you can go through an entire dungeon without having any danger to yourself while you fully support your team. No other spell of any equivalent or higher level allows that, since not even true seeing allows you to be targeted. That's called "Broken" and the house rule "fixed" it. You built someone with no physical stats. I'm sorry that isn't working for you anymore, I've had builds crap out on me as well.

[Lotus]

Am i missing something? Because the description of greater sanctuary in nwn1 (per the nwnwiki) says "the caster becomes ethereal" ...

You're not missing anything. "Greater Sanctuary" in NWN1 was Ethereal Jaunt. It's even referred to as Etherealness in various source docs for the game.

You added a rule that fundamentally changes the tools available to honest players in a way that they couldn't predict, and consequently made viable builds and strategies no longer viable.

Ruling that the tools should be used as intended and not as permitted by the engine isn't a tragic happening. Going ethereal and having the freedom to summon, cast certain offensive spells, and heal your allies with 0 risk is garbage. The engine lets you attack people without setting hostile, the engine lets you join forces with NPCs to kill other players, the engine lets you pickpocket indefinitely with impunity, the engine lets you HiPS over and over, the engine lets you drop items in a location with one character and retrieve them with another. These are all things that go against the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish here. Using a spell that for most intents and purposes makes you invulnerable and then actively contributing to your side's success goes strongly against what we're trying to accomplish here that we have created rules to amend. If your build is centered on being completely untouchable while you get to perform your full function, tough luck. This is good not only for PvE balance, but for PvP balance as well.

[Laurk]

A lot of spells don't work as intended from the PnP version of them

Which is perhaps why ive been using the spell as it mechanically allows since the early days of NWN1. While the "description" says it turns you Ethreal, the mechanical effect is that it places a "sanctuary" effect on you & doesn't turn you invisable or make you unable to speak to people in the prime. Since people rarley self police, typically the engine is the rule. If we are going to RP it as Ethrealness, we need to never speak or listen to each other, and it would help if you also turned invisable.

I understand it had to be fixed because of new exploits. And while id have prefered that the hostile spells were fixed to break sanctuary, this was perhaps the easier fix. There are tons of spells that don't function as they were supposed to, but this one that is so vital to me is the one selected to be "house ruled." That's fine, I accept that, but im asking for the combat medic sanctuary ability to be fixed or changed so I can remain playing my PC here. Its only a request, and if the staff says no, they say no.

[Lotus]

the mechanical effect is that it places a "sanctuary" effect on you.

Except it doesn't, as hostiles are allowed a Will save to overcome Sanctuary and attack you. What this spell actually allows you to do is be undetectable/uninteractable without any sort of consequence, which is no bueno.

[Laurk]

Well wether its balanced or not, thats for you to decide, however it "does" put a Sanctuary Icon on your portrait. It just doesn't give your opponents a will save. However they can still hit you with AoA spells, missle storms, area dispells and even whirlwind attacks. It is powerful, but then its a 9th level spell. But in my opinion anything even close to a hostile spell should break it. Even buffing with combat buffs and summoning. But thats just me. In PnP, I break it if someone has hostile "intent" i.e. they are casting spells to prepare to attack someone. But NWN isn't perfect. I agree it does make things very easy but when im running into a fray trying to heal our beleagured fighter... im often spending more time watching the portrait's HP than the battlefield.. and Ethrealness was sure nice to have on. It basically does the same thing as invisablity does anyway; but I can't cast invisablity.

Generally when our tank needs healing; he needs it now. That means I have to run into the middle of a large group of enemies, and cast a spell without dying. Then get back out. Its bad enough if I walk and cast defenslivly... Its impossible however if my healing spell sanctuaries the tank and all those orcs; no longer able to see the tank decide I look good to eat. It means you "have" to be a combat build with a high AC to use the combat medic class (which is a class that trades combat ability for potent healing). And that is sad. Variety is the spice of life.

Honestly I always prefered Sanctuary to invis so I could RP closer to the Book of Exhaulted Deeds which gives those who swear pacifism an aura of calmness. You're not invisable, but hostile monsters cannot attack you if they fail their will save.

[Laurk]

One last thing: The change you've made has one major flaw. Lets say I cast Ethrealness and turn my whole group ethreal as it is an area of effect spell. Unlike the PnP version, I still cannot buff/heal/or anything any of them. We are "not" all in the ethreal plane where we can intereact with each other. Rather the engine puts us all under a Sanctuary effect where we are unable to attack/heal/buff each other. Heck I can't even apply bandages. Also, someone who cast mass "anything" will still be able to affect us even though we are "in the ethreal plane" according to the house rules.

I can't cast spells on anyone in ethrealness, even if I am also ethrealness. I don't receieve the same protections as being ethreal would afford by PnP. I can be hit by fireballs, chain lightning, implosion, dispells, whirlwind attacks etc. I can even be "taunted" to make an AoO which breaks my sanctuary (thats why I use a sling w/ no amo.. something ONLY a pacifist is going to have going for them). The spell grants none of the things that make ethrealness worth using. It doesn't even make me invisable. What good is ethrealness going to do me when a like-level cleric drops implosion on me (Since they can SEE me) and I have to make a fort save or die? I think ive got an 12 with buffs. Are we going to ask players not to target ethreal players on the honor system? Doesn't that just create a policing headache for the staff? Why would we expect those who were willing to use hostile spells from Ethrealness to follow this rule?

So basically you've blocked what is mechanically possible, and give permission to do what is mechanically impossible.

So really I don't even have the ability to use ethreal jaunt to bring people into the ethreal plane so I can heal them while I am ethreal. The function of this spell is limited to self buffing and escaping now. So other than changing it as a way to stop cheaters from cheating (who will just go find a differant way to cheat and exploit)... what is the point? Is it really "balanced" to take a 9th level spell, and reduce it to an escape spell? I have to give up Mass Heal to use this. Its a fail-safe while it lasts, but it "is" very limited in that I only have 3 9th level spells, and I do prepare Mass Heal as well, and it can be broken by any idiot who runs around someone who is Ethreal by provoking an AoO.

Wouldn't the simplier fix by far be to simply call the spell Greater Sanctuary, consider the mechanical Sanctuary effect it gives you to be what its doing rather than this ethreal nonsense, and then make a rule saying you can't use hostile magics while using it? Punish the abusers, not everyone else.

[Lotus]

Lets say I cast Ethrealness and turn my whole group ethreal as it is an area of effect spell.

I would say buff them before you turn them ethereal.

Are we going to ask players not to target ethreal players on the honor system?

We already do, and they generally do a pretty good job of it. In fact, our players manage a lot of good behavior on the honor system. It's amazing, the quality of people we have here.

Why would we expect those who were willing to use hostile spells from Ethrealness to follow this rule?

For the same reason I expect people who were healing their prime material plane allies to follow this rule. The argument for using healing while ethereal is the same as using hostile spells and summons that didn't break etherealness: the engine mechanically allows it.

Is it really "balanced" to take a 9th level spell, and reduce it to an escape spell?

Ethereal Jaunt is 7th level, and that's your self option. Etherealness is the 9th-level, full-party option.

Wouldn't the simplier fix by far be to simply call the spell Greater Sanctuary, consider the mechanical Sanctuary effect it gives you to be what its doing rather than this ethreal nonsense, and then make a rule saying you can't use hostile magics while using it?

No, because Sanctuary effects allow hostiles a Will save to overcome it and target you. Ethereal Jaunt makes you immune to targeting, no save. You're asking for an anti-targeting option that lets you cast your spells with impunity, the only counterplay for which would be a PC- or DM-controlled caster with True Seeing and a lucky guess with an area-of-effect dispel. No.

[Laurk]

Sounds good. It would be cool if some of the features of Ethrealness could be scripted into the spell. So you could pass through locked doors, interact with others in the Ethreal plane with spells, and actually be invisable to those on the material plane seeing as everyone can see you when you're ethreal, as though you only had sanctuary on.

The walking through doors part would be easy. You'd just have to include a toggle for "collisions" when the spell goes into effect. That way your PC could pass through creatures and doors much as a DM does. Ive seen this effect used player side on Sigil I believe. Who needs knock when you can pass through any locked door? That would be a great utility for the spell that is absolutly source by the PnP rules!

You could probably also put an improved invis kicker on the spell so that you actually vanish as per the spell. Of course it would have to toggle off when the spell ended.

Not sure how you could make ethreal creatures be able to spell cast at one another though. Sounds like a lot of work.

[GodBeastX]

NWN2 has bugs NWN1 doesn't have because developers got older NWN1 source code which was full of shite. They didn't get nwn1 1.69 source to make nwn2.

That being said, a lot of what you're asking to do just doesn't work so making a custom ethereal would be a pain:

1. Invis doesn't make you invisible, only SOMETIMES.

2. Canceling attacks and such doesn't work right so you can't always stop something from attacking something else.

3. Toggling ability for spells to target a player is possible, but that is a whole shitload of spells to recompile right now which we're just not ready to do (Yet, might be in the future).

4. Walking through doors is like, 1% of the headache with implementing an ethereal that works right.

[prismaticcrow]

I'm tired of this spell.

I say you just remove it entirely.

[Barathos]

I'm tired of this spell.

I say you just remove it entirely.

The spell is one of only a few ways a mage can get out of sticky situations. Yeah, it sucks that a mage can just 'poof' out of nowhere like that, but it also teaches your character a lesson about mages. Not to mention, as I said, it is one of the few ways a mage can dodge from harm.

It's one of the perks to being a mage. Just like being a Master of Many Forms means you're the god of RP situations (What's that? You guys are having a convo? Lemme just turn into a bird and listen in!).

[Lotus]

The spell is one of only a few ways a mage can get out of sticky situations.

Really.

[Laurk]

NWN is chalked full of "over powered" spells, abilities and skills. You can look at tons of individual spells and abilities and make a strong case why they are too powerful to exist and kill them with fire. Its never ending and each time you tug at one string, you just unravel another. D&D will never be balanced, and someone's spell/ability will always be OP to someone.

Get rid of Ethrealness, then someone will start singing about how HiPs is ridiculous and over powered. "I can cast 9th level spells, change the fabric of time and space, alter physics as we know them, command the power of a God with my fingertips, and yet... there is not one single spell in my mighty collection that can allow me to spot a dude hiding in a 10x10 empty room with the lights on... WTF!?"

After that, it'll be Divine Power, or Bigby's and on and on. Soon you'll be tinkering with every class and keep having to rework to find that elusive balance. D&D is an archaic and flawed system that was never really designed to leave the table top. Its not going to be "balanced." The closest you'll get is to strip everything down to the basic core classes and races & magic gear as in the PH & DMG, and burn everything that has to do with an expansion. But if you did that, no one would play your server.

[Valhalla]

"I can cast 9th level spells, change the fabric of time and space, alter physics as we know them, command the power of a God with my fingertips, and yet... there is not one single spell in my mighty collection that can allow me to spot a dude hiding in a 10x10 empty room with the lights on... WTF!?"

Zone of Revelation