Minor annoyance: Can we please stop lumping Shamans in with Druids/Rangers?

[Kirin]

Still. I'm not saying all druids and shamans are naturey. I just mentioned that they use nature magic. I would imagine most would be naturey and those who go against the grain would have a slightly harder time.

That's part of the point. They don't use "nature magic". They use boons gained from spirits. If a shaman wants to cast Call Lightning today, they seek out a spirit that has some power over lightning. It could be an elemental. It could be the ghost of a long-dead druid. It could be some ancestor that was killed by a lightning bolt.

In any event though, the spell doesn't come from nature. It comes directly from the spirit that granted you use of it. And not all spirits are nature spirits.

[cmosier]

That's part of the point. They don't use "nature magic". They use boons gained from spirits. If a shaman wants to cast Call Lightning today, they seek out a spirit that has some power over lightning. It could be an elemental. It could be the ghost of a long-dead druid. It could be some ancestor that was killed by a lightning bolt.

In any event though, the spell doesn't come from nature. It comes directly from the spirit that granted you use of it. And not all spirits are nature spirits.

So they use spirits to cast nature magic. I'm not really disagreeing with you. It's a matter of culture, I think. Shamans usually come from cultures where spirits, good or bad, are natural, for lack of a better term.

[Doubtful]

I see this as being closely related to the Wizards as Scientists thread we have going on.

There's a huge array of ways to present your shamans functionality available to players.

A large part of the issue is the typically narrow perspective people have of what the natural world is (in D&D terms). It isn't just oak forests and nymphs, but encompasses pretty much everything on and under the planet.

Introducing a new stand-alone nature faction of any kind is just going to further exasperate the problem, not to mention probably end up like the Wardens of old which is a bad thing.

Anyway, I think your rant is probably falling on ears that agree.

[thaelis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJ6eH7duJ10

I'll just leave this here for you guys on a new perspective.

I hate you GBX....now I won't be able to stop til I've watched all the episodes!!

[kuscotopia]

I hate you GBX....now I won't be able to stop til I've watched all the episodes!!

Seriously....the bard character is pretty fantastic.

[Kirin]

So they use spirits to cast nature magic. I'm not really disagreeing with you. It's a matter of culture, think. Shamans usually come from cultures where spirits, good or bad, are natural, for lack of a better term.

Hrmm. Let me explain it a slightly different way. There's really no such thing as "nature magic" in Faerun. There's arcane, divine, and eldrich. A druid uses divine magic, just like a cleric, just from a nature God.

Druids draw blessings from deities, shamans bargin with many little beings of all sorts, again, many of which are undead and would be abhorent to a drud. The source of magic is very important in faerun, not the individual spell. Finger of Death can be cast by lots of different casters, but they gain access to it it different ways.

So, don't get caught up too much on druids and shamans sharing spells. Their magic is fundamentally different, because the source is so different.

[GodBeastX]

Okay, I just read from the source. Shamans DO use nature magic. Here's the blurb from the Complete Divine book. Looks like your whole post is invalid. SORRY!

P.14 Complete Divine

SPIRIT SHAMAN

Master of the spirit world, the spirit shaman follows a different
divine tradition than the cleric or the druid. Her world
is filled with powerful, living spirits, some helpful and some
malign. By bargaining with these spirits, the spirit shaman
gains power over the natural world and mighty divine magic
with which to aid her comrades or smite her enemies.

Adventures: Spirit shamans exist to mediate between
the human world and the spirit world and make sure that
humans (and dwarves, elves, orcs, and all other humanoid
races, of course) respect the spirits as is only right and
proper. Spirit shamans adventure to advance the causes of
whichever spirits they favor. Those who venerate helpful
spirits seek to assist people deserving of the spirits’ protection.
Those who revere dark and vengeful spirits promote
the chaos and suffering in which their patrons delight.
Through their actions, spirit shamans prove the power of
their patron spirits and earn prestige and status in the spirit
world.

Characteristics: Spirit shamans cast divine spells much
the same way druids do, though they get their spells from
powerful spirits of nature. Their spells, like the druid’s, are
oriented toward nature and animals. In addition to spells,
spirit shamans gain an increasing array of spirit powers as
they advance in level.

Alignment: Spirit shamans, in keeping with the indifference
of the spirits, tend toward some measure of dispassion.
Unlike druids, they are more tribal than solitary, and
involve themselves in the affairs of their fellows. Most spirit
shamans are neutral on at least one alignment axis, but it is
not uncommon to find a spirit shaman who has become so
caught up in the affairs of the living that she has lost her
distance from human concerns.

Religion: A spirit shaman reveres the essence of religion
more than the practice. She gains her magical powers from
the spirits that inhabit all things, living and dead, animate
and inanimate. She combines ancestral worship with animal
and nature worship. The typical spirit shaman, like a druid,
pursues a mystic spirituality of transcendent union with
nature rather than devoting herself to a divine entity. Still,
some spirit shamans give honor to deities of nature such as
either Obad-Hai (god of nature) or Ehlonna (goddess of the
woodlands).

Background: Spirit shamans are first taught by older
shamans. When a tribe’s spirit shaman feels that the time
is right, she chooses a potential successor from among the
young folk of the tribe. Taking the youth into her own
home, she spends years teaching her student the ways
of both the natural world and the spirit realm. Typically,
when the young spirit shaman is ready, the older shaman
then sends her student out to wander the world for a time
in order to gain the wisdom and experience necessary to
serve as the tribe’s spirit shaman on his return. Sometimes,
a young shaman impatient with an overly cautious master
strikes out on his own to seek out the knowledge he feels
his master is withholding.

[GodBeastX]

I was going to point out all the spirits, like elementals, were nature spirits that were being mentioned, but instead decided to look in the book to verify.

[[DM] Grinning Death]

Aaaaand verified.

That being said, I'm not entirely opposed to making changes to the class for Sundren alone. Of course, we have some technical issues in deity restrictions for the time being.

[Kirin]

Okay, I'm not afraid to admit when I just got served. Forget I said anything.

*scurries away and hides*

[GodBeastX]

Personally, I don't see the point in changing them. They venerate nature and spirits, yes, but that doesn't mean they're tree huggers and stuff. Their primary purpose is spirit interaction, not growing vegetables.

Shamans are likely to be around tribes and people close to earth anyway. You don't tend to find Shamans in temples where clerics would be and priests.

I say leave it like it is.

[cmosier]

Just work with the DM to see how loosely they define "Nature Spirits."

[GodBeastX]

It's pretty specific actually:

WHAT IS A SPIRIT?
Several of the spirit shaman’s abilities affect spirits. For purposes
of the spirit shaman’s ability, a “spirit” includes any of
the following creatures:
• All incorporeal undead
• All fey
• All elementals
• Creatures in astral form or with astral bodies (but not a
creature physically present on the Astral Plane)
• All creatures of the spirit subtype (see Oriental Adventures)
• Spirit folk and telthors (see Unapproachable East)
• Spirit creatures created by spells such as dream sight or wood
wose (see Chapter 7).
In the spirit shaman’s worldview, elementals and fey are simply
spirits of nature, and incorporeal undead are the spirits of the
dead.

And their spirit ally is always an animal spirit. It's not a separate entity but a spirit that only they can perceive.

[Farmboy2003]

There's a stuntie SS on the server, that follows his dead ancestors as an rp background. That is a wicked nice concept, I say screw the source.

I want to make an urban druid now...

[Kirin]

There's a stuntie SS on the server, that follows his dead ancestors as an rp background. That is a wicked nice concept, I say screw the source.

I want to make an urban druid now...

Well, nothing about the quoted lore prevents you from gaining power from ancestor spirits.