Minor annoyance: Can we please stop lumping Shamans in with Druids/Rangers?

[Kirin]

Shamans are not another flavor of druid. They are not inherently nature-oriented. I see this idea floated around a lot, and, I worry that it's become a very common misconception.

A Shaman can be very nature oriented, if that's the type of person they are and they mostly gain power from nature spirits. But there are many forms of spirits, including fey, ghosts, ancestral spirits, elemental spirits; and Shamans can bargain for power from any or all of these as their RP and personality dictates. They're not guardians of nature, they're people who talk to unseen forces, up to and including undead!

Really, if Shamans are lumped in with any other class, it should be barbarians. Shamanism, even if an individual shaman is civilized, is a very primal and ancient practice that has a lot of ties with tribalism.

I'm sorry to be rant-y. But it feels like the Wardens are (or were) the designated spot for Shamans on Sundren, and well, shamans are not druids. That's really only fitting for some shamans. I'm not suggesting they have their own faction (We have plenty of factions!), but just for folks to try and keep that in mind when talking about shamans.

Thanks for putting up with my soapbox.

[thaelis]

I thought about this before making that post, and what you're saying did cross my mind (there's a whole thread related to this debate actually).

In the end there are some Spirit shamans who RP the nature side of it and I didn't want to exclude them.

[Phantom Lamb]

They recently tried to strip away the SS gods so they weren't strictly from the druid list. That met with some technical difficulties. But, I think the server agrees with you. Not sure what the source of your frustration is, but that's the direction they are going in, too.

[Kirin]

I thought about this before making that post, and what you're saying did cross my mind (there's a whole thread related to this debate actually).

In the end there are some Spirit shamans who RP the nature side of it and I didn't want to exclude them.

It wasn't you specifically! I don't begrudge anyone for it, it's just frustrating when I talk with people about the future of my shaman and they keep pointing to the Wardens, and with the only representation of spirits in the game being animal spirits allied with the Wardens.

I think it's just a misconception, maybe just because Shamans share the druid spell list, but one the setup of the Wardens keeps perpetuating. One I've been trying to disenchant.

I'm sorry if I missed any older debates on this, I've been away for a bit.

[Raksha]

The Wardens are dead, so they're definitely not the proscribed faction. (In fact, none of the currently existing factions is a good fit for druids except for Nature's Wrath, which is for the gods of Fury mostly) I could definitely see a shaman fitting in with anything from the Black Hand to the Legion. (The First Legion is a thing!)

As far as gear, +charisma and other useful properties are pretty common among factions. For +spell slots you're kind of hosed, of course, but that's true unless you hit on the correct spellcasting class(es) for each faction.

If someone goes 'ooh, hippie' in character, you can of course correct them ICly.

[Grand Unified Theory]

If someone goes 'ooh, hippie' in character, you can of course correct them ICly.

Oh come on.. EVERYONE knows that if you roll a druid or shaman, you get a copy of one of these in your inventory.

[Kirin]

The Wardens are dead, so they're definitely not the proscribed faction. (In fact, none of the currently existing factions is a good fit for druids except for Nature's Wrath, which is for the gods of Fury mostly) I could definitely see a shaman fitting in with anything from the Black Hand to the Legion. (The First Legion is a thing!)

As far as gear, +charisma and other useful properties are pretty common among factions. For +spell slots you're kind of hosed, of course, but that's true unless you hit on the correct spellcasting class(es) for each faction.

If someone goes 'ooh, hippie' in character, you can of course correct them ICly.

For items, I'm not too worried about it. As you said, +CHA is common enough.

Just with the Wardens gone, this is the perfect time to stress that Shamans shouldn't be associated with druids/ranger be default. If new stores (minifactions?) pop up, shamans should probably be paired off with barbarians.

Mostly this is about player perception, one that I (thankfully!) has already started growing in the direction I've hoped it would.

[Raksha]

... Also, crap. Now I want to make a Legion Spirit Shaman that channels the spirits of the First Legion.

Damn you, character ideas!

[GodBeastX]

... Also, crap. Now I want to make a Legion Spirit Shaman that channels the spirits of the First Legion.

Damn you, character ideas!

luls

I think everyone knows this stuff already. Used to be a spirit shaman who was a city investigator awhile ago.

[cmosier]

They get lumped with druids because they get druid spells. In the grand scheme of things, I suppose spirits can be seen as natural. When I think shaman I think of nature and spirits lumped together in one belief system. While I can see a paranormal style for a more urban type Shaman, in the end, they still use nature magic.

My point... an odd thing to be annoyed about. Like when wizards ask "Why does everybody want me to buff them?"

[kuscotopia]

... Also, crap. Now I want to make a Legion Spirit Shaman that channels the spirits of the First Legion.!

The spell selection reinforces the nature stereotype.

"Come to me spirits of my ancestors and manifest yourselves as...well...fire, water, earth, or air."

Opening-up/re-configuring PrCs to Spirit Shamans along the themes we are discussing could help too. *cough* Master of Shrouds *cough* Some of these will come with loosening of the deity requirements.

My pie-in-the-sky wish would be for far greater spell diversity for the class. Some divination as you commune with the spirits? Yes, please!

[cmosier]

... Also, crap. Now I want to make a Legion Spirit Shaman that channels the spirits of the First Legion.

Damn you, character ideas!

*shakes his head*

[GodBeastX]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJ6eH7duJ10

I'll just leave this here for you guys on a new perspective.

[kuscotopia]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJ6eH7duJ10

I'll just leave this here for you guys on a new perspective.

Ha! That is fantastic.

[cmosier]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJ6eH7duJ10

I'll just leave this here for you guys on a new perspective.

I agree 100%. Paladins are indeed full of themselves (among other things).

Still. I'm not saying all druids and shamans are naturey. I just mentioned that they use nature magic. I would imagine most would be naturey and those who go against the grain would have a slightly harder time.

It's like saying, I'm bothered because everybody thinks my wizard likes to read. Could just be a battle mage and reads because he has to. It's like a job to him. Tedious and kind of boring. Still, he'd have to go to the scroll shop for goods.