Sundren crafting bugfix discussion

[Doubtful]

1 sounds good to me. Bring on the customisation.

[kuscotopia]

1 sounds good to me. Bring on the customisation.

Hear, hear.

[Daimondheart]

Wild wood being better than mithral is a no-go.

That's fine. I didn't intend for it to be better than mithral anyway. I just feel it should be about equal or a little bit less than mithral.

[Kitsunestume]

A consideration for Doubt and Aniril_Telin, and anyone else willing to get involved in this mess with us :
http://www.sundren.org/forum/showthread.php?t=20880

Discussion throughout the thread earlier this year suggested the removal in crafting fatigue for the really simple basic stuff (primarily RECIPIE320: su_r_tail_clothing, I should think).

[Kitsunestume]

Because this is a REALLY STUPID discovery that aught to go in the suggestion thread but would be ignored there anyhow, I feel this should be recorded for future consideration.

Scythes do not exist in the crafting 2DA. Anywhere.

Fixing this at some point might be a good idea.

[Mournas]

Scythes are for farmers!

[gbbishop]

I know this may not be the time nor the place for craft overhaul discussion. if there is a better place for this please move it.

Anyway, I had this thought re: crafting and wanted to share it before I forgot. The idea that you need to BUY a recipe for crafting each individual weapon is just silly. The "recipe" you would need to learn or develop would be the smelting, the tempering, and in general the process/workflow that yields a successful item at the end of your labors.

Once you know how to work steel making a dagger and a sword is quite similar. There are differences sure, but a skilled smith would know how to make them work.

So to craft you should need the following. IRL and (IG)

• workspace (crafting stations)
• raw materials (ingots)
• technique (IG item A)
• schematic (IG item B)
• expendables, energy, etc (i.e. gold)
• time (fatigue)

Workspace/raw mats - we have this already

Skill - we have this in the corresponding craft skill

Technique - the process one needs to make a sword and suit of armor are varied enough that these could and should be separate techniques. e.g. cold iron armor would be different than cold iron blades.

The Techniques would be rarer especially the mithral, alchemical gold etc... we could even have super secret hidden techniques that allow crafters to make Ironstar steel for example.


Schematics - to be used in combination with a technique this is a plan for how long width weighting etc... This is incredibly flexible and is represented by our current "recipe" but any craftsman could easily create this on his own with a piece of paper and graphite. I would propose doing away with this element entirely, but I believe we need something to direct the game engine. So, I say have a schematic for each type of weapon easily available for purchase.

*mold - you don't use a mold! you might use a form or a template but you would build each of these as you crafted. the material cost for such are negligible and should be incorporated into the GP cost. This would also simplify the system which would benefit all IMHO.

[Aniril_Telin]

Because this is a REALLY STUPID discovery that aught to go in the suggestion thread but would be ignored there anyhow, I feel this should be recorded for future consideration.

Scythes do not exist in the crafting 2DA. Anywhere.

Fixing this at some point might be a good idea.

Well, unless someone makes some more models for them, there are I think currently 3. Though what I would much rather do is organize the crafting scripts into executions and a single include to make it self isolated and easier to edit and manipulate. There are several instances where tags seem to have been incorrectly edited and cuased several things which should be working to fail. While easy to resolve, those with access to the scripts and working versions of the system where it could be rectified have far more than that on their plate. I would be happy to make some new weapon models, however I personally feel resolving the mechanics to operate correctly is more pressing.

[ManUtd4Ever]

Skill - we have this in the corresponding craft skill

Technique - the process one needs to make a sword and suit of armor are varied enough that these could and should be separate techniques. e.g. cold iron armor would be different than cold iron blades.

The Techniques would be rarer especially the mithral, alchemical gold etc... we could even have super secret hidden techniques that allow crafters to make Ironstar steel for example.

I see where you are going with this...I like it and would like to offer another view point.

I see Skill and Technique as synonymous the way they are described here. Mechanically, the Skills necessary to make a Sword or Armor are already different:

Craft: Armor smithing
Craft: Jewel crafting
Craft: Tailoring and Leatherworking
Craft: Weapon smithing
Craft: Woodworking

If you want to make a suit of Mithral Full Plate, you must be confident you can make the DC: 31 Skill requirement. The more skill they have the more capable they are of using exotic metals such as mithral, adamantine, alchemical gold etc.

No matter your skill level though… one constant is the amount of fatigue each smith is assessed in accordance with the item crafted. I would recommend the older the smith the more he or she has perfected their “technique” so as to reduce fatigue. They may even have perfected their “technique” so as to require less materials to make what a normal smith would need because they are less prone to missteps.

So… I really do like the concept of “Technique.” Typically a smith will specialize in only arms and armor. I would suggest allowing them to invest additional skill points in:

Technique: Armor Smithing
Technique: Weapon Smithing

For each 5 skill points invested in technique the amount of fatigue is reduced 10%. 20 -24 skill points reduces the amount of materials (ingots) by 1; 25-29 by 2, and so on.

Cheers!

[gbbishop]

I don't agree with the crux of this. I have been a professional metal worker I can assure you. Working in titanium vs gold it TOTALLY different and neither are dependent on skill. my skill as a metal worker would not allow me to work in a metal I know nothing of. I could be a Master goldsmith and someone would give me a hunk of titanium and I would be utterly incappable of doing anything with it unless I worked to understand titanium i.e. learn techniques for titanium.

I agree that you can refine technique, become more efficient. So something like that would be ideal - more rare recipes that have lower fatigue material costs. I love that idea.

But this is way off topic I should have not posted perhaps this discussion can be moved. My apologies to doubt for hijacking the thread.

[Kitsunestume]

AT: thanks for the input, I wasn't quite aware of the limitation, but the complete inability to forge an entire weapon tipe is a bit irksome.

GBB: Go right ahead. Discussions are discussions, try to keep it productive and craafting related, and I don't forsee aby problems. GBX has stated in the past that he was looking for feedback on the current crafting system, so I don't think your stepping on any toes.

I'ld add more but I must depart shortly.

Cheers,
Kit

[sonuvalich]

It's a bit of an overlapping discussion between crafting limitations and store limitations. I get why the faction stores do not cover every single armor and weapon type (dear god the size of the store inventory...) but it does lend itself to going a bit cookie cutter. Blackwood, for example, carries the duskwood longbow but no shortbow, light crossbow, or sling worth mentioning. So if you wanted to be a halfling mercenary, you cannot get a weapon that fits your character without going crafting or DM pestering. Come to think of it, I am not sure if even crafting could get you a decent sling.

I recall in NWN:HoU you met a drow crafter in the Underdark who said "I can enchant your weapon up to +10, which would you like?" and the conversation had options for like +1-5, keen, flaming, etc. with varying gold costs per enhancement. It would be awesome if the faction vendors could do that for weapons and armor, with certain limits depending on rank (initiate = +2, advanced = +4, top rank = +6). If crafter PC's could get enchantments that the faction vendors do not, that would still keep them very useful.

For example, Blackwood gets a smith. He can make a weapon +1-+2, shocking, or duskwood. James the wandering elf smith gets PC-only recipes to make it +3, vampiric, or keen. The weapon can only get made with so many enhancements, but players have good reason to see James for at least half of the enchantment.

[[DM] Grinning Death]

We initially had planned for a system as stated above, using faction rep to determine what enchantments would be available for people to use, with something less powerful for non-faction members.

However, those plans fell through, and instead we're building the store weapons from the ground up, starting with the Black Hand. They won't have every weapon type, but it should have a large variety of weapons to choose from.

[Kitsunestume]

For enchantment, I would personally LOVE to be able to say "Reffer to DMG".
If the total enhancement bonus from each enchantment was calculated such that more enchantments got a higher total cost, it would make selling magical enchantments a lot less confusing for both the client and the vendors, I think.

As it stands, there is a rather arbitrary '3 enchantment limit', which never changes, and the resource costs can vary quite a bit between similar enchantments. Having a simple table for "Add up to this number of enchants will cost you X, and require these reagents, and take Y fatigue based on the total bonus" would be awesome. Discounts based on current total enhancement bonus, and maximum offer-able enhancement bonus based on caster level would also be possibilities.
The latter suggestion would effectively make low-level casters ideal for minimal enchantments, and likely tend high level crafters towards supplying the later enhancements to optimize fatigue costs. Not that it isn't how it works already.

Also, sonuvaluich is kinda right: best a enchanter can give is a +3 sling with 2d4 elemental damage on it of two different types. I'm pretty sure that your better off with plenty of other options.