Toleration

[Clutch]

My point is simply: drow != conflict.

There is reason enough for conflict out there, even without drow. Clerics of evil entities, tieflings who flaunt their demonic roots, warlocks who give backing to the assumption all of them are evil, people who use undead in front of a church of Kelemvor and say they will kill anyone who attacks their pet... the list goes on.

The drow fueled conflict and shown damn well how it should be done. I'm not saying they are the only ones to be able to create conflict in here, but I dont see evil clerics, tieflings and whatever doing that as of yet. Most of them go along with the goody goody humans. Hidden evil is fine, but all of them ?

The drow were a great example. Simple as that.

I think part of the problem is that lots of people in RP games, both computer and tabletop, don't know how to create and enjoy good conflict WITHOUT it coming to violence.

Yes, very true. As said before the reason why the drow went poof, people felt 'griefed' by their roleplay. Most of the time because they lost to them, since they were not complete idiots.

[Xym]

One of the things that the drow had going for them is that it was Easy for them to band together. Like someone had mentioned earlier about them having a place to group up and coordinate from. I'd love for my evil character to have a place to go where I knew I'd be safe and could express my feelings. As it is my char now is just trying to play nice for the most part until I can become powerful enough to hold my own.

It's easy for a good person to go up to a group of people and say "lets go slay some goblins" Now for an evil person to go to a group of people and say "lets go slay some people", now that is just going to raise a big red flag and put a bullseye on your back to be watched / hunted. Evil people have to be FAR FAR more tactful in how they go about finding other like minded people.

Sometimes, if I want to do something fun / challenging I have to bite the bullet and go group with some goody goody and act all nice to them despite the fact I'd just as soon see them laying face down in a puddle. I'm to the point where I'll group with people and I won't heal them or help them beyond fighting the monster. If they die, I'd prolly laugh at them and leave their corpse for dead.

[Akuma_Reiten]

My character hates everyone:

Elf= Snobbish gits
Dwarf= Has rocks for brains
Religion= Bunch of blind cattle
Drow= back stabbing snobbish gits
Tiefing= Smelling backstabbing gits
Other people= Value of mud

But in a tolerant place like Sundren he's not going to get away with anything. The only reasons he doesn't go around beating up people he especially dislikes are:

A= He'll get lynched by all the 'good' people.
B= He'll be throw in jail with no way out
and C= He's just not strong enougth to get away with it.

I agree that evil char's need a little place all for themselves, so they can find out who's on their side and work to undermine everything. The drow had the advantage that they were the same race, so that was normally a big give away as to who was really your friend. How am I supposed to know if that guy's really evil...?

--------

However I also believe this is an issue that for some players drives a little home. Most people have been at the end of an intolerant person themselves and would prefer not to recall those days.

[Clutch]

I think when the faction system comes in it will be much easier to find evil characters hang around 'evil' spots. Church of Bane maybe for instance ?

[Anks]

My character Nocte hates plenty of people , lets see.

Half Orc = I hate them, Exept for Urthak he made nocte laugh.
Elfs = all a bit snobbish so I hate them
Gnomes = Either insane or snobbish so I hate them too
Dwarfs = Good drinking partners so they are tolorable
Humans = Ehh?
Asimars = Divine cry babies that follow a good god with single minded ideals.
Other Tieflings = Same as humans
Halflings = Funny little people , easy to manipulate.
Drow = I want to kill most of them, but since the only one around is a good character I wont touch them, due to the fact they have alot of buddies.
Religios Fanatics (AI Paladins , Druids , Clerics): They can either shut their mouths about their teachings of their gods or they will soon have their spine out of their back and into their mouth.

See, spreeding the hate to everyone is fun. It creats conflict

[Squat45]

Jeez, perhaps I'm going to say some stuff here that will be VERY unpopular... and so be it... but this is a ROLEPLAYING server, not a team vs. team or a PvP server... a lot of what people seem to be clamoring for is one of those 2 instances!!! The game you want is called guild wars!

I've just been playing here a little bit, but been on the forums a lot and I've seen people constantly trying to turn a roleplaying server into something that it is not... if the community and the admins want to make this a team-based PvP or simple PvP server then do it... but don't do it under the guise of "good role-playing", because in my opinion, that is BS!

Interpersonal conflict between PCs is one thing, and that is what the original post was talking about... sometimes people don't get along, dislike each other... it may or may not have anything to do with race or class... sometimes just personality. There are people that I just cannot stand in RL, but I don't go shooting them! Why, because for one thing it's wrong and for another thing because it'd be going against the authorities... and would be heavily persecuted for doing so.

If you want to see more interpersonal personality conflicts... create some. Make a paladin that just about everybody hates... he doesn't go around killing people at random, but he'd be arrogant, condescending and all together a very unpleasant guy to be around... And then role-play that... but don't complain because the precious drow and their raiding PvP parties are all gone... I personally have got very little sympathy...

Anyways, that's my grrr.... and opinion.

[Saulus]

Jeez, perhaps I'm going to say some stuff here that will be VERY unpopular... and so be it... but this is a ROLEPLAYING server, not a team vs. team or a PvP server... a lot of what people seem to be clamoring for is one of those 2 instances!!! The game you want is called guild wars!

I've just been playing here a little bit, but been on the forums a lot and I've seen people constantly trying to turn a roleplaying server into something that it is not... if the community and the admins want to make this a team-based PvP or simple PvP server then do it... but don't do it under the guise of "good role-playing", because in my opinion, that is BS!

Interpersonal conflict between PCs is one thing, and that is what the original post was talking about... sometimes people don't get along, dislike each other... it may or may not have anything to do with race or class... sometimes just personality. There are people that I just cannot stand in RL, but I don't go shooting them! Why, because for one thing it's wrong and for another thing because it'd be going against the authorities... and would be heavily persecuted for doing so.

If you want to see more interpersonal personality conflicts... create some. Make a paladin that just about everybody hates... he doesn't go around killing people at random, but he'd be arrogant, condescending and all together a very unpleasant guy to be around... And then role-play that... but don't complain because the precious drow and their raiding PvP parties are all gone... I personally have got very little sympathy...

Anyways, that's my grrr.... and opinion.

PvP is part of Sundren whether you accept it or not, it isn't going anywhere and it isn't changing. It has boundries and a place like everything else, and while it may not be the centre-piece it is definetly a part.

[Soulbadguy]

Jeez, perhaps I'm going to say some stuff here that will be VERY unpopular... and so be it... but this is a ROLEPLAYING server, not a team vs. team or a PvP server... a lot of what people seem to be clamoring for is one of those 2 instances!!! The game you want is called guild wars!

I've just been playing here a little bit, but been on the forums a lot and I've seen people constantly trying to turn a roleplaying server into something that it is not... if the community and the admins want to make this a team-based PvP or simple PvP server then do it... but don't do it under the guise of "good role-playing", because in my opinion, that is BS!

Interpersonal conflict between PCs is one thing, and that is what the original post was talking about... sometimes people don't get along, dislike each other... it may or may not have anything to do with race or class... sometimes just personality. There are people that I just cannot stand in RL, but I don't go shooting them! Why, because for one thing it's wrong and for another thing because it'd be going against the authorities... and would be heavily persecuted for doing so.

If you want to see more interpersonal personality conflicts... create some. Make a paladin that just about everybody hates... he doesn't go around killing people at random, but he'd be arrogant, condescending and all together a very unpleasant guy to be around... And then role-play that... but don't complain because the precious drow and their raiding PvP parties are all gone... I personally have got very little sympathy...

Anyways, that's my grrr.... and opinion.

I think the majority of the people here agree with you.

Let's not a beat a dead horse.. thats what is going on in this discussion..


- Most everyone has agreed that they want more conflict in the game. More non-PVP than PVP.

- Tolerance is a little high in the game and it seems some players maybe conversing or being friends with characters they normally don't chit chat with.

- The drow players was a good example of "conflicting" characters in the game.


Thats pretty much what is being discussed here..


Now.. lets shut one down..

- Drow : Forget about it. They are not coming back in the near future, no matter how much you all bitch about it. There is a reason they have been nixed and its been discussed, Do some research in the forums on why . You don't need to have Drow to have conflict. Its simple as that . No more discussion on why or why not drow should be played. Please!

We are also trying to follow the vision of the server as well.


About the others:

- Conflict: It seems it has been discussed that people want conflict mostly in a non PVP matter because PVP conflict will always happen no matter what.

Solution: As many players have discussed on here, like Charmed said in her post about looking at situations in RL and applying them in game. For example, think of ways to create it without being too annoying in game. Don't make your character so perfect. I have done this with Abigale, I use to have her get along with everyone. So I have decided to bring her out a little and cause conflict with alot of players now but doing so without just being immature or annoying.

Abigale is of Helm and born in the life of Helm. She is hard headed in her duties and that can cause lots of conflict with even good players. Think about what your character's "hard headedness" is.



Tolerance: Do a little research and find out what your character may or may not tolerate in their day to day activities. Especially if they come from a certian culture or town.

Also.. think about your own character!!! Are you playing your character right? Or are you just making a "Drizzt" version of your character? There is massive players who "hate" drizzt.. but they will play the whole concept just the same.. you see elves who are basically good.. but played evil.. thats a Drizzt in a nutshell. Your playing a tiefling that is usually evil by nature or chaotic.. but playing them as good? Thats a drizzt in nutshell. Taking a character out of the norm of a "textbook" culture is basically pulling a Drizzt.

Really there isn't much else to be discussed on here. People are discussing this which is very interesting and great. But.. enough said.. let just DO. All it takes is people to start "acting" not "procrascinating".

[ThePaganKing]

Roleplay

I agree that there needs to be more intolerance, but it should be roleplayed and not just, I hate you because (insert).......

Both parties have to roleplay. If one tries and the other ignores you, which has happened to me before, then there will be no roleplay. Or, if you look down your narrow elven nose at a half-elf or look loathingly at a half-orc and that character just bashes you, well, that isn't really RP either. At least have some interaction, gnash and tear your hair, before you just bash someone.

As to PVP, I think it has a role and it should definitely be roleplayed and roleplayed heavily, IMO, or its just bashing or "my character is better than yours," mentality.

As to evil, like so many people have stated in this thread, evil can roleplay so many different ways; however, unfortunately many evil characters think evil is merely going around and killing and spitting on your new shiny mail boots! The best evil roleplayers, IMO, have been the subtle ones, that stab you in the back when you least expect it, frame you for something they did, get a Paladin to do something evil, or use good aligned people to further their own goals, only to turn on them at the last minute.

One of many evil vs. good roleplays I was part on another server was very well done. A group of us came together to run down a very powerful and evil Wizard. We were a mixed party and most were good or chaotic good, with one other character that we were not sure of, but had helped us in the past. We fought the dragon and all were very beat up and all of a sudden, this person turned on us and killed us all. All I could do was laugh and applaude because it was so well done. That person, unknown to us, worshipped bane and had set us up! That person had partied with us on occasion and had always been helpful or seemed to. But when we looked back on it, the person was always the last to enter the fray and never healed anyone or helped unless it was a dire situation and would ultimately hurt the evil player.

[Felnak]

I was one of the elitist asshole Elves on the server as well as many others for a time. But sadly, like the drow, some players couldn't deal with it OOCly and started complaining, so I/We toned it down a notch or two. It seemed to have an effect on all of us at the time and still does at least for me. We do far less grouping together as a race now and i kinda miss all the inspired RP that these folks ruined. I know it took the wind out of my sails.

BINGO! The mellowing of the Elves changed the style of many players. Correspondingly, the half orcs, and to a certain degree the Red Wizards had lost a major source of antagonism. And the focused antagonism toward the Drow was lessened. Major factor here on increased tolerance! IT IS NOT JUST THE DROW!

[Felnak]

Jeez, perhaps I'm going to say some stuff here that will be VERY unpopular... and so be it... but this is a ROLEPLAYING server, not a team vs. team or a PvP server... a lot of what people seem to be clamoring for is one of those 2 instances!!! The game you want is called guild wars!

I've just been playing here a little bit, but been on the forums a lot and I've seen people constantly trying to turn a roleplaying server into something that it is not... if the community and the admins want to make this a team-based PvP or simple PvP server then do it... but don't do it under the guise of "good role-playing", because in my opinion, that is BS!

Interpersonal conflict between PCs is one thing, and that is what the original post was talking about... sometimes people don't get along, dislike each other... it may or may not have anything to do with race or class... sometimes just personality. There are people that I just cannot stand in RL, but I don't go shooting them! Why, because for one thing it's wrong and for another thing because it'd be going against the authorities... and would be heavily persecuted for doing so.

If you want to see more interpersonal personality conflicts... create some. Make a paladin that just about everybody hates... he doesn't go around killing people at random, but he'd be arrogant, condescending and all together a very unpleasant guy to be around... And then role-play that... but don't complain because the precious drow and their raiding PvP parties are all gone... I personally have got very little sympathy...

Anyways, that's my grrr.... and opinion.

Squat... you do know Squat!
Too much of that Team vs Team, PvP, or Guild Wars activities can really ruin a RP server. I was on another RP server where the Drow were treated like a pet race and wars were waged against the surfacers. The DMs were in the process of attempting to tone it down but had let it become WAY OUT OF CONTROL. Many players became quite tired of those activities and left.

In Sundren, there could be more genuine conflict tempered by local laws.

Felnak

[TheFarsight]

I am just going to say this.

There is player conflict in sundren.. But.. Only for like twenty minutes a day. Why? Because it is one evil person, acting evil... Then getting lynched.

I have always viewed Evil like this... A comic book. Just because you are evil, and have your own little evil plans of taking over the world.. Does not mean, you can't work with the next evil girl or guy. To many evil people on this server stay loners, outcasts, hiding they are evil, even to other evil people. Do what they do in a comic book. Form the sinister six, form the guild of Sundren's super villians. Just because your all evil and cruel and just down-right assholes. Does not mean you can't work together. Even if you plan on killing your partner in crime down the road.

I was a Drow player, and yes we fueled alot of conflict. But.. Why did it reach everyone? Why was it always heard? Why did it not just die out? We worked together. Fought together, died together. Even though there was a complete struggle for power going on below the surface. We still worked together, or tried too.

Look at it this way. Spider man comics. The individual villians in the sinister six... Kinda sucked. Lowly's, people spiderman would kick the crap out of alone or against two. But as a six, they would constantly kick his ass.

So villians, start being villians, form up. Unite the bad, and go out making people fear evil, fear tieflings, fear warlocks. Instead of just going... "Oh.. someone summoned a demon.. Thats ok, I talked to him for five minutes, we cool"

Thats just my two cents.

[GodBeastX]

You know what sums up my opinion? I had an NPC last night beat the stuffing out of a bunch of vampires keeping people alive after a giant fight.

My NPC says to the PC "This is a war and your only fortress is this temple!"

PC "A war?"

Huh? What? The necropolis is a bastion of soldiers trying to exterminate life? Didn't seem like anyone viewed it that way at all. There's basically more dead in the Necropolis than living. Necromancers are held up in there making an army, but people seem like "Meh, I'll just sit here and watch."

Some people RP it out to no end. They stay the course of the cleric/paladin of Kelemvor defending the doors to the church and other gods. Rallying support from other players. Then we have people who show up simply because.... it's a social spot. Like the mall of the Undead or something.

How does that relate to toleration? We have alot of good people that are actually neutral on the server. There's very few good people. They are Apathetic. They don't help their fellow man, only when it suits them. They don't take up causes where nobody else would. They don't risk their necks for others. They don't go out of their way to help the weak and down trodden. They don't even smite evil... So how did you shit toward good in life? Talking happily with your neighbors doesn't make you good. Lawful evil people even talk happily with people. You ever notice alot of the devils are smiling in their pictures? They're Lawful/Evil. They will be friendly, grab your soul and still be patting you on the back after you've signed the contract. I think there'd be more conflict if people played with the alignments they were given.

And while I'm talking about it, here's another issue I personally have.

I used to run alot more of a mysterious event style quests. But they always ended in people pushing the wrong direction, me trying to deter them toward a solution, but instead they push HARDER the wrong direction until they're dead. Or they ended with someone not even giving a rats arse when the threat wasn't RIGHT THERE in their face. As if they can't see past the end of what their sword is supposed to attack.

It seems everyone wants "Instant Success" in event lines. If they can't resolve a problem THAT DAY then they feel they lost. Whenever I ran events that didn't get "Won" in a day, I'd get tells as soon as I login with everybody asking me "Did something happen? Can you make something happen? I'm ready ton win today instead!" Guess what, if I was going to make something happen, it would be happening, and you'd be pulled in. I am trying to run plots for newcommers, and the "Veterans" are sending me tells the whoooole time trying to get me to run plots for them. Make a help post if you want to ask about an ongoing plot. It's alot easier. Questions are fine if I can just answer them quickly. Some questions shouldn't be asked though. And back to events...

I've raised people in battles OOCly and had people screaming in their ears "Run! Get out of here!" emotes like "You're being overwhelmed!" and they just keep fighting and fighting. I don't want players to die any more than they want to die, but I don't want to bend the lore of the server either. The necropolis is a bastion of evil. If one man goes in, he ain't coming out. Because we want people to progress, we tone down a certain pathway through it so you can kill and progress, but there's much more in the necropolis than you see. There's many more mossclaw in the forests than you witness. There's many more goblins in the cave than you tripped on getting down there. When people start becomming apathetic toward things around them, they're going to ruin the spirit of what things are supposed to be.

Do you want hack and slash quests all the time where killing is how you win? Then take interest in something past swinging a sword. I mean, what do people expect of the DM team if that's the only solution you ever come up with? Wonder why some NPCs are unkillable? Because we want you to think of something else. I know one DM is beating his head against a wall because when one of his NPCs with a clearly laid method of defeat comes along, everyone just tries the same thing. It makes him not even want to bother running plots.

And seriously, how many different events do you expect us to start from the necropolis? They're all pretty much going to be clerics, undead, or something related to both. If you're sick of that, try being somewhere else we can involve you. I'm not going to have little red riding hood hop up to the necropolis to pull PCs somewhere else for an event. You guys have to meet us halfway. We don't want to move your chess pieces in conflicts and events. We don't want to play the game with ourselves. I could code up some Auto-attacking AI we could use for PCs if we wanted to run events like that all day.

"Something powerful shows up, what do you do?"

"Attack!"

"A bandit has a knife to a woman's throat, what do you do?"

"Attack!"

"This guy doesn't like your shoe color, what do you do?"

"Attack!"

No wonder people can't handle PVP combat. They wind up learning the hard way "ATTACK!" isn't always the right way.

[GodBeastX]

I have always viewed Evil like this... A comic book. Just because you are evil, and have your own little evil plans of taking over the world.. Does not mean, you can't work with the next evil girl or guy. To many evil people on this server stay loners, outcasts, hiding they are evil, even to other evil people. Do what they do in a comic book. Form the sinister six, form the guild of Sundren's super villians. Just because your all evil and cruel and just down-right assholes. Does not mean you can't work together. Even if you plan on killing your partner in crime down the road.

Kollotta said this to someone last night IC.

"You don't have allies, because you all try to grab the same thing for yourselves. Eventually you'll both fight over it. Everybody wants to rule the world, but there's not enough castles to go around."

Sinister Six would be something awesome to see

[TheFarsight]

Kollotta said this to someone last night IC.

"You don't have allies, because you all try to grab the same thing for yourselves. Eventually you'll both fight over it. Everybody wants to rule the world, but there's not enough castles to go around."

Kollotta.. Cracks me up. If Kegan was evil, summoning her all day long is all he would do.. like that cleric of bane you have get himself killed that one day =P.

But yes.. The Sinister Six would be awesome. I have often thought of taking the tongued bastard Drashan, and going "you, you, you, you, and you... Come with me to the lair of bad and stinky feet..."

But anyway... I agree with your entire post GodBeast... Even more so to the post about the Necropolis becoming a hang out spot... Its like a bunch of kids sitting around graves waiting to see a ghost, eatting their sandwhichs made by mommy. I have even stopped raising people in that area.. Simply because as you said. They just get back up and fight again! So.. if you die in the kingdome of the undead.. Please don't send me a tell. I am off wandering other places healing people and bringing them the aide of the Emo Priest.