Discussion: PVP

[Drowess-]

*facepalms* This is not the first time I see this. No offense meant, but I see it as hypocrisy.

I'm not going to go to my PnP buddies, sit down at the head of the table ('cause I'm the DM, ha!) and tell them to stop trying to win. Just the same way, when Shilaqui, Ulfgar, Chyrub and Fenec come face to face with derro dwarves, salamanders and beholders while they are creeping stealthily in the ruins of an ancient dwarven city and that they make a blunder that makes most of the patrols and search parties turn on them in pursuit -- I expect them to pull all the stops to get themselves out of that situation. Potions, scrolls, kitchen sinks, wands... everything.

Why? Those characters wish to survive. Those characters have goals, a mission, motivations to go on - a reason to live and maybe something to fight for.

If they want to survive and to fulfill their goals... won't the characters themselves do everything they can to make sure they are the one standing in the end?

...then again, as a DM, I don't grant meteor swarm, drown and bigby hand-line spells to my players when they kill goblins, umber hulks and gnolls (not that they ever fought them, but meh). There's a good chance that just successfully tweaking the loot tables on that level will have a large part of the problem die off on its own on Sundren.

Notice how people use Bigby spells against other players, but not against NPCs or in DM encounters.

Everyone and their mothers have UMD. The problem is that Use Magic Device is - on Sundren - being mostly used to make it so that people are going to be able to use scrolls -- but that's not the skill's only use! UMD can be used to have a rogue manage to figure out how a wizard's magical wand function, or allow a bard to wear one of the special drow armors despite them being for Elf+Evil only. Sundren's low amount of magic items (and position as a low magic setting)spoils part of the skills use seeing there aren't yet many items which are specialized and have some restrictions (something I am pointing out - I know its going to be corrected - but I do not view UMD's primary use to be scroll use - I see it as being able to have a rogue equip those special monk boots).

Another suggestion I'd bring up would be to tweak some shops to make it so that only one instance (or a limited number) of an item is going to be up per server 'life' (per restart, essentially) - similarly to how the Temple of Helm had only one set of Ogre Power gloves available... Maia had to wait a few days to manage to be able to get some for herself. That means that people will stop stockpiling Mage Armor, Shield and Protection from Evil scrolls in several stacks of 10... which will make the odds of those being used frequently in 'buff-up-to-demigod-status' situation a lot less frequent.

When do you really want to use that Protection from Evil scroll? When you are fighting evil NPCs... or when you confront that Succubus? People in PnP are picky - they'll hoard some of their consumables until the right moment or the right time (when they see some use come out of it) and it seems it could apply here.

After all, how many potions of Cure Serious Wounds can the Temple of Helm in Miroku's post make in one day? I don't recall the helmites or any other church having a soft drink business.

I very much agree with a lot of points in this post. Particularly the limitation on availability of scrolls and potions and rare items that can be bought.

Now, I know I play a drow, but that is not the only reason for this. We drow get a couple of potions and healing kits available to us. Surfacers get scrolls and potions and kits and magic items (The only magic items we're able to buy cost a LOT).

Limits on the purchase of magical items are a perfect way to prevent the spamming of potions and scrolls, especially if the drop rate on these (which I believe it is) is going to be lowered a lot.

[Zoberraz]

Mind you, Drowess, what I meant applies to some of the potions your wizard NPC sells too. You have access to stuff we surfacers don't have- I won't elaborate on what since I don't think it should be said aloud on the forum.

(btw, can you not quote my entire post when your post is just below? It's really not necessary ~_^ )

[GodBeastX]

Without reading the whole of everything, I have to say. You take the "Not trying to win" out of context by far.

Obviously when you get into a fight you're not going to lay down your sword and die. What the point is, is your character's death all that horrible to you that you need to go beyond rules and regulations to win? Do you bypass actions we state are griefing just to go "Hah! I killed you!" That's the "Trying to win" situation. It's when you go beyond the IC RP and bring it OOC into some vendetta for no real reason beyond silly pride.

If I may...

Though it may be desirous for 'realism', it inevitably leads to player versus player unhappiness in a good fraction of cases. I'm not sure the benefit outweighs the gains. We do play to be happy after all. PvP should only be for fun; and then, only for fun for both parties. If there is cause for PvP because a player is acting like a jerk, it should be escalated to the DMs.

Mutually consensual PvP is my vote, for what that's worth.

Edit: Ack. Just read that Sundren uses memory loss rules. Makes realism even weaker. Hard for me to see the role-playing point of PvP then. I prefer RPing it as barely surviving, but with memory intact. Good thing there's presently no penalty other than a bruised ego. Permadeath would be great for realism, but as I said... create unnecessary unhappiness, imho.

This seems like a very limitted view. I'm going to use the Drow as an example. Let's say we removed PVP and changed Sundren to a Non-pvp server. What would your character do when you met a murderous Drow in the wilds? ...
...
...
...
No, you can't attack him or halt him in any way. He is sharing a camp with you. You are L/G and this guy is the murderer you've been seeking. Guess what? It sucks. Do we just not allow people to play anything that would be directly opposed to the common society? That's kind of bland. Then players wind up just waiting for DMs to manage everything because all players are generally on the same side.

"But godbeast! You can be evil without being against the law or murdering and such!"

Well, what sort of villain is that? They aren't a villain to me if the heroes don't try to stop them. They're just a jerk if that's the case.

This was the spirit of the PVP rules and thought. When someone is an enemy they aren't allowed to pick and choose when they are treated as such. Enemy to the "good" guys or the "Bad" guys.

However, I feel that people aren't looking at it like this. I feel people are taking it to a contest or a "I PWNED YOU!" level. Hence the "UBER" scroll usage in every fight. I have yet to see a PVP match that wasn't a super scroll use. Or a match where someone didn't hide in a corner to buff up completely then come back and try to egg the other into a fight.

I have to be 100% honest and off topic on this above point. I don't know about other DM's on the server, but I've instituted a new policy for myself. Anyone who comes into an event acting like they're immortal and dies, will be left dead after the event. They will earn RP exp same as everyone else, but I won't be the one to raise them. If they respawn they will end up losing more than they gained. Why do I do this?

It's very disappointing to bring out a giant who towers over someone and would quite literally crush the person if they stepped on them, and this person doesn't blink an eye and just charges in. It's disappointing when people are in a group around a camp fire speaking, and somebody walks up that thinks he's immune to the guards all around him, then proceeds with trying to start trouble.

This immortality idea is, in a word, lame. I can't stand these characters at all. In truth? I think there's very few who can. Nobody on the server is immortal. Nobody on the server is a god. Nobody on the server is even close to the power of them.

Why do I rant on about this in a PVP thread? Because this is how many people act in PVP too. On both sides, the attacker and the victim. I watch it alot. Someone walks up to someone else and brings out threats. The person threatened never wants to back down. Not ever. Threats that would scare someone lilly white are ignored. People roll intimidate and it's ignored. This is the "I win" concept that I spoke about earlier. Whatever doesn't help you win is invalid. Honestly? I'm tempted to buff the attacker with +30 STR just so they can make the guy take threats seriously.

FOOTNOTE: Worst excuse to ignore a threat "I have 8 wisdom, so I can't tell a threat from anything else!" BS. Even dogs can tell when a master is angry and will hide in a corner. Nobody who plays a character has as low of mental stats as a dog.

Then we have the attackers who feel -they- are god powered. They walk around just trying to pick fights all day and makes DM's shake their end in disgust.

I feel that no-respawn death is the only viable option for these. People need to learn and sit and think that "Man, maybe I should have just backed off and nothing would have happened." I'm confident most peopel will always find someone to sympathize when they die. As for those who can't? Better not die in PVP or you'll be dead, for a good while. This was the thinking behind the respawn system requiring res. Anyone without allies or sympathizers will suffer.

Anyway, this is my thoughts on the subject.

[Zoberraz]

We have some veterans whom have their levels stand in the tens. for example, Maia's sort of in the middle of level 11 right now. In my eyes, an adventurer whom reached that level has a right to feel confident about his own abilities because, well, he's quite above the ken of the normal character.

On the other hand, just the same way, that same character is also going to have the experience to stay out of trouble most of the time, since he got to that level again. That's sort of a balancing point.

If I see a giant lumber Maia's way, her reaction is probably going to be a "Blessed Corellon, how am I going to take that thing down?!" rather than "RUUUUUUUUuuuuuuuuun!" You don't need black skin, a scythe, a bald head and plate armor to at least act like a badass mid-high level character ~_^

Additionally, I admit I've yet to see a DM other than you, GBX, give xp to people whom back off from situations... I don't think there's a great tendency to reward those whom don't care to risk their lives against elementals, or evil necromancer mages in the forest.

Black-garbed evil-looking necromancer: "Bla bla bla silly elves, bla bla, mwuaha, silly elves."
Maia: "Do you want something or did you just come to insult me?"
Black-garbed evil-looking necromancer: "Bla bla bla, you suck you're dumb bla bla bla."
Maia: *disgust* "I don't have to listen to this." *leaves and changes zone*

Also, Maia's encounters with the drow taught me that whatever Maia was having for a confrontational urge I was pushing too far. There's a bit of "If I'm going to back down people will take me for a weakling and think it's okay to bully other elves" mingled with some elven pride behind about every fight Maia goes in when she's on her own... but many of the bad situations Maia put herself in PvP could have had been avoided thanks to her skills at stealth and acting in a more clever fashion. Ironically, her current situation is working a lot in favor of that (Cheh, learning how it's done from the drow).

An aside: Maia has no UMD. The only spells she ever uses are ranger scrolls. She might ambush you, pluck arrows at range, attack with little provocation if you happen to be someone whom seems to be looking for a fight (some people just don't understand "Leave or else"), and might try to outlast a fight with stacked odds against her with healing potions (vs. cleric/druid or multiple opponents) but darn it at least she fights.

As for being intimidated or just backing down, I remember Maia encountering an half-orc whom was over a bridge asking for a toll. He had just killed a dwarf. Maia came closer to investigate, learned of the orc's intentions and decided she wasn't going to pay a fine (nor start a fight close to melee range) so she reconsidered and decided to back off and leave. The half-orc yelled something like she wasn't allowed to go back, buffed himself somehow and ran after Maia axe raised - buffing, telling Maia she couldn't even back off? Bad idea. Maia wasn't going to wait for him to get into melee so she turned and opened the battle with manyshot.

Oh, this brings me to something Echelon mentioned. Personally, if I'm attacked, I can go hostile right away with a skill like Manyshot. If the attacking guy doesn't have the presence of mind to set himself hostile and thus disadvantages himself when he's the one attacking, I wash my hands off it. That's not my problem - I'm not going to look in the list while the other guy might be coming to swing an axe at me.

[Peridan]

I'm not going to look in the list while the other guy might be coming to swing an axe at me.

Can I quote you on that? =)

[Zoberraz]

Sure. That's a more meaningful quote that doesn't force people to scroll down half a page. ~_^

The part I said about being taken for idiots is largely tied in to that. For example, if this guy in an event comes in and kidnaps someone out of the blue... I'm not going to wait for him to just run away - I'm going to go stabbity the moment he responds negatively to put the woman down. I mean, what am I supposed to do... stand there like a beached carp and let him kidnap her? Jeez.

Oh, and one other thing. People having "I am an evil person and obviously serve an evil god" in their descriptions meeting up with nice pious dudes whom happen to worship a diety opposed to yours are not metagaming when they go "I shalt vainquish thee, fiend," (or just "Die" or "I will kill you.")... especially after rumors going of something related to whatever the bad person is causing trouble/grief in the area. It's called being proactive. You know "I'll get you before you get me."

Oh, and before someone calls foul on my previous sentence, might I precise that's exactly what the Sundarians are doing with the drow?

[Ula Fey]

However, any PvP death at all should be perma. Period. You'd better have a good RP reason to engage someone in combat, 'cause if you screw up, you're character's dead. This should make people think twice before they do it. I don't like the any other method (One PvP death a day, percentage of being revived, etc.) because it seems to say "It's okay to PvP every once and a while, even if you don't have a good reason".

I have had one experience of CvC... Ula was attacked by two drow and promptly killed. It was done within the guidelines that exist, I was happy with how it was RP'd, and it was appropriate to the characters involved (two Drow NOT attacking a lone human? that would have been practically unthinkable).

I ress'd at the temple, then logged out and left the character for about 24 hours RL before I played her again. It's brought some interesting character development opportunities, regarding her attitude to the drow, and on the whole has actually been quite a positive.

If I had died and this had been perma death, as per Abyss proposal....I'd have logged out and found another server. I don't believe any character should have the power to perma another character, that should be in the hands of the DMs only. Or, obviously, by mutual player consent, where one simply agrees not to play the character again.

There are times when CvC is...well, almost unavoidable, from an RP perspective, and good RP should not be punished by permadeath.

Other than that...I quite like the idea of a timer between ress's...better yet I'd like the idea of a timer between CvC encounters with another character...BUT that should just be done by the players themselves anyway.

<edited to add in...as a player, I didn't particularly like getting my arse kicked..but I knew from the outset that would be the outcome, I was only interested in seeing how many hitpoints damage I could inflict before I went down...it was...err...nil. Well, all those skill focus(craft armour) feats that are appropriate for a would be blacksmith don't leave much room for combat feats... , But my unhappiness as a player at being killed lasted as long as the first conversation I had post-death...when i realised all the RP opportunities the event had given me....so, yeah, for me at least 'losing' in this case was actually a big win.

And....UMD can clearly be abused...but it's a very useful skill for a low level character to be able to cast things like mage armour and protection from arrows to help them survive their first few forays past the bandits in the gate of the sunderer...so I wouldn't want to see it go or be nerfed completely...but it could certainly be tweaked, or scroll availablility changed, to prevent the spamming of higher level spell.

And a note of thanks to Sundren for once again looking for player feedback on a topic like this. It's much appreciated.

[Akuma_Reiten]

Lets have a stab at this topic.

I haven't been able to actually play on the server yet, but I think I've got a good idea on what's happing and what are the problems from everyone's posts.

One problem I can see is the creation of the "Us vs Them" mindset. When ever a sever throws in faction war's rp will suffer. Why should I talk to the enemy? If I don't kill them they'll kill me. While without faction's your more likely to find personal duals/fights, which get rped alot more often because the two characters share a resentment towards one another... making the combat a bit more dramtic in some cases.

Unfortunately there aren't many ways to avoid putting in faction wars in at some point. The only ways I can think of are: Removal of evil races, removal of evil characters, complete separation of factions (Area's so far apart the two factions will rarely meet one another). But no wants any of that.

The UMD abuse is just that, abuse. All I can suggest for that is give the abuses a bit of slappin once in awhile so they remember not to do it. Or jack up scroll prices, becasue demand is high and supply is low.

Now the big issue is what happens after pvp. From over here in the forums it seems to me that the cost of death is low enough to let people go have silly brawls all the time. Repeated pvp will ruin a server. I've seen it on a server I used to Dm, everyone just comes back to life and kills each other again. It's like living in valhalla.

So lets take a look at some punishments for death:

• High xp and gold loss (No one likes this)
• Permadeath (I could only ever condone this if like the entire server lynched someone, or Dm choice)
• No more xp (An interesting system I saw once, when you died you couldn't get any xp until an Hour per Level went by. I thought this worked rather well becasue if you died you couldn't do much, and you character may even disappear for the entire day)
• No respawn (This might be a good idea actully, relying on the kindness of others. But the DM's will get messages like "I'm dead in the forest and no one will ever find me!")

In the end I have to say losing the whole faction war aspect will dramatically improve pvp for some people. Though the only way I can see out of that is giving all the bad people a city of their own to hang out in.

I have always felt that pvp should be the final resort of a bitter relationship rather then a first choice. Weeks of effort put into undermining the other, weeks of plot's stopped, weeks of dishonor finally leading up to one thing. The other has to die.

[graysword]

One of my characters suffered CvC death in the forest twice in a week. This character is a low level wizard. Each time there was no warning, each time the switch to hostil came moments before the attack, each time my character tried to flee and was persued and killed and each time I was told that the rules were that the character would not remember.

I do not understand the point. A character with thirty hit points and minimally buffed would have no chance against a character capable of doing twenty to thirty HP of damage per blow. I have read all the post above and see one consistant thought: the players here are not so much interested in RP as they are in building characters that can take out any and all comers. They will use any small advantage they can devise to do this and they feel justified by the rules and policies of the server to do this. That is why I have left.

Graysword.

[Ula Fey]

I have read all the post above and see one consistant thought: the players here are not so much interested in RP as they are in building characters that can take out any and all comers. They will use any small advantage they can devise to do this and they feel justified by the rules and policies of the server to do this.

I'm not in any way going to invalidate what you have just said - you've described your experience in Sundren, and I can see why it would frustrate you to the point of leaving.

But I must disagree with the section I have quoted, simply because it is a blanket condemnation of the playerbase. Neither of my characters is built for CvC, nor, I am sure, are many of the others I RP with.

I completely accept that those you came into contact with in the situations you describe may have been, and their players may have used every possible advantage - but it isn't the case that everyone on Sundren does the same.

And the fact that it happens at all is one of the reasons why threads like this get started, by those responsible for setting rules/policies/guidelines.

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy your time here - I've had a lot of good RP, and a minimal problem with CvC...but everyone's experience here is different, had mine been the same as yours I'm sure I would be just as disappointed.

[Nyssis]

I'll have to express that I am actually appreciative of PvP even against utopic odds, so long as the roleplay that comes with it is properly done. I was recently involved in a DM event that resulted in PvP with Urthak, who was rated as "Impossible" to Marona and is a Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker. She attempted talking with him, but he went violent after seeing his eye being toted around in a bottle used as a taunt from her other party member, Torgrim. Surely, it was unexpected when he attacked and she yelled a bit in anger, but damn was it fun.

Keep in mind that my character is a low-level cleric/monk with a brick of buffs and gloves that deal minimal cold damage with every strike. Torgrim was absorbing the blows while we pounded away at our attacker. We did surprisingly well; we got him down to Near Death status, and then he healed to Barely Injured, and mowed us both down.

Sure, I died. Sure, it sucked dying. But the factor that it was so fun was what really gets me excited about PvP. I enjoy it, seeing as it doesn't happen often with Marona, even when I'm fighting people that can rip me apart in two hits. Now, this is different from people that wantonly attack just because they feel like it. And a permanent death? It would not make walking around wearing no armor fun.

[Squat45]

I am a new player, in fact, still waiting to officially make my appearance on the server... but my understanding was that there had to be "warning" and "agreement" before PvP (or CvC) could be started... what Greysword indicated above mentioned neither , but I could be wrong.

I've played on several servers, mostly RP servers, and seen a decent share of PvP combat... although I've never actually engaged in any myself unless it was a DM run event (with using a high-level evil PC as the bad guy).

My personal thoughts are that there can be a couple of different types of PvP combat...
#1) Practice/Trial/Duels PvP - This is an honorable fight (or dishonorable) between characters... rules are discussed and the assumption here is that the character, if "slain" would then be bandaged by the other opponent and continue on with life. Perhaps some sort of repercussions, say fighting over the ownership of a sword or money (or even, "This town ain't big enough for the 2 of us" motif). In this case, death should not be permanent.
#2) Faction Wars. This is a fight between factions, such as what I am reading with the Drow. This is a no holds barred fight and death is probably the overall goal of the fight. In this case, because the factions can very much be unbalanced, so no permadeath.
#3) Grudge Match... this is very personal combat between characters... and a no holds barred, no rules combat to the death. Death here would be permanent unless raised by a DM or another character.

Why the differences? Different playing styles. If 2 players really RP out a good fight, there should be consequences. I don't particularly like #2 at all... but it appears it's been implemented into the module so there is a need to work around it... and there are a lot of places where #1 can do a lot for RPing out a character.

How this would be handled? Well, I really don't know.

Would I be pissed if my character was jumped by opponents with no warning? Darn right I would be as a player! There is a reason I play on RP servers and not PvP servers! If a players just want to fight in PvP... there are servers out there for that...

Ok, enough from the newbie

[cpas]

I have had the pleasure of dying several times in the past few days via PvP. All in all I've really enjoyed it due to the RP possibilities it has opened up for my character(s). Granted, the character(s) are ignorant of the actual incident of their death as per Sundren death rules, there is still usually a piecing together of the death (be it accurate or not) afterward which is good RP fodder. I find the notion of factions very interesting as well. In many ways I think that factions of a sort already exist. I think that as long as there is no over the top griefing or rules abuse going on PvP/CvC really makes the game a lot more enjoyable. Imho: permadeath should absolutely never be used as a punishment for PvP within the rules.

[InquisitorFury]

One of my characters suffered CvC death in the forest twice in a week. This character is a low level wizard. Each time there was no warning, each time the switch to hostil came moments before the attack, each time my character tried to flee and was persued and killed and each time I was told that the rules were that the character would not remember.

I do not understand the point. A character with thirty hit points and minimally buffed would have no chance against a character capable of doing twenty to thirty HP of damage per blow. I have read all the post above and see one consistant thought: the players here are not so much interested in RP as they are in building characters that can take out any and all comers. They will use any small advantage they can devise to do this and they feel justified by the rules and policies of the server to do this. That is why I have left.

Graysword.

Who did you even play?

[Belwas]

One of my characters suffered CvC death in the forest twice in a week. This character is a low level wizard. Each time there was no warning, each time the switch to hostil came moments before the attack, each time my character tried to flee and was persued and killed and each time I was told that the rules were that the character would not remember.

I do not understand the point. A character with thirty hit points and minimally buffed would have no chance against a character capable of doing twenty to thirty HP of damage per blow. I have read all the post above and see one consistent thought: the players here are not so much interested in RP as they are in building characters that can take out any and all comers. They will use any small advantage they can devise to do this and they feel justified by the rules and policies of the server to do this. That is why I have left.

Graysword.

While PvP does have its place and can be fun if done right. I think back to this server before PvP was common and I think it was better before we had packs of stalking drow, or groups hunting drow.
The bottom line to me is that Greysword was trying to stay out of PvP and the other players did not respect that option. I've encountered that myself and it seems to be a developing and unfortunate trend in Sundren.