WHY BARDS (and maybe barbarians) UNABLE TO BE LAWFUL IS JUST SO SILLY

[Waverider10]

While I agree with alignment being funky, i'm gonna throw this thought in:

If you look at alignment as if its from a perfect civilized human society, then Barbarians, by their nature, aren't lawful. Historically, laws from civilized human society in theory came from a many codes of many tribes which were agreed to make a greater good. Barbarian tribes my have codes, but they only fit their smaller group. So, Conan may be lawful to his own code, but at the same time break the codes of the civilized world. Once a barbarian excepts a greater civilized law, he's a fighter.

[Root]

Agreed pretty hard. I think it's due to the class being designed with 'Hey, let's make an offshoot fighter for the people who want to play the crazed berserkers', without realising it'd form into itself as representing the noble savages with strong traditions and personal codes.

Still, I see why it's there. A barbarians lawfulness should be limited to their own codes. The further they go towards following other peoples laws, and respecting order and tidyness, the more they cease to be a savage.

My personal response to all these has been to just throw alignment out the window and let players play as their characters would. Hold Paladins to vows, and Clerics/Druids to dogma. That's the only restrictions you need.

A character can be a leader or join the army without being lawful. Just as a character can viciously oppose evil without being good.

I'd consider joining and obeying a disciplined, military organisation grounds for becoming a 'fallen' barbarian, by which I mean just switching them to replacement levels in Fighter (yes, technically a bit wierd canonically, but the alternatives result in horribly gimped characters).

A man whose primary combat strategy is leaping around, dual-wielding his enemies has no place in a tortoise formation.

They Barbarians. Barbaric Savages. Not knights who occasionally lose their temper.

[Kaybrie]

Not all military formations are rank and file.

ala skirmishers, scouts, commando's etc. positions that even a typical bard or barbarian could find themselves perfectly comfortable with a chaotic alignment.

[Nyssis]

I think it's less about formations and fitting in, and more about obeying authority and oh-god-stop-doing-that-to-your-own-men.

Edit: LOOOOOOOOOOL

[Root]

Not all military formations are rank and file.

ala skirmishers, scouts, commando's etc. positions that even a typical bard or barbarian could find themselves perfectly comfortable with a chaotic alignment.

Dosen't change the fact that they're in a disciplined group, following orders, and obeying a chain of command.

In a military group, a barbarian wouldn't go long without finding a situation where his personal beliefs contradicted orders. Following the orders of superiors against your beliefs is a hugely lawful act, that speaks of self-control and discipline.

Here is a picture of a barbarian.

One does not run at a 45' angle whilst wearing a bear because they respect authority.

[Kaizen]

In a military group, a barbarian wouldn't go long without finding a situation where his personal beliefs contradicted orders.

Says ... who?

Barbarians must be non lawful, not - they must be chaotic.

[Root]

Says ... who?

Barbarians must be non lawful, not - they must be chaotic.

Never said they had to be. I personally think this post.. (waverider 10, I suck at HTML)

Barbarian tribes my have codes, but they only fit their smaller group. So, Conan may be lawful to his own code, but at the same time break the codes of the civilized world. Once a barbarian accepts a greater civilized law, he's a fighter.

hits the nail on the head with a power attacking greataxe crit.

And fighting for an army (not a horde or raid group, an organised legion, with no ulterior motive) certainly counts as accepting that greater civilised law.

Barbarian. Not angry soldier.

Then again, I suppose law-abiding, politically active barbarians do have a precedent...

[Mournas]

Yeah, who knows, we may get some people who are clerics of a nature deity but specialize in necromancy and also go around using undead.

Let's not throw around veiled insults towards people here. Keep the undertone under control.

Yeah cause no one OOCly grinds in Sundren right? =P Id have picked Conjuration had I remembered that 3rd edition healing spells are actually Conjuration and not Necromancy. As all healing spells were prior to 3rd edition.

[Root]

Yeah cause no one OOCly grinds in Sundren right?

OOCly grind?

Not to verge off-topic, but if I came across a Kelemvorite PC watching his summoned zombie farm enemies for him, I'd react as if it was perfectly IC.

Which for my old character would probably mean jumping up and down on him until he stopped twitching, then burying him under a large rock.

(My barbarian code of honour was to kill all evil things for the glory of the dragon-God. Hey, I'm back on topic. Woop.)

[Kaybrie]

Even legions have military positions that aren't in a phalanx. a commander who has a guy who likes to run at 45° angles wearing bears whom decides herp derp join the phalanx... The military issue may lay in command. Certainly; historically barbaians didnt have much a place among spartans. Though in a fantasy setting where conflicts are more often limited to small skirmishes I'm sure you'd see... especially among pc's how a leader would view having a tough meaty killing machine is adventageous. So the commander affords the barbarian some personal freedoms so long as he or she gets the job done

edit long phone message is long

[Catastrophe]

Yeah cause no one OOCly grinds in Sundren right? =P Id have picked Conjuration had I remembered that 3rd edition healing spells are actually Conjuration and not Necromancy. As all healing spells were prior to 3rd edition.

OOC or not, you should be mindful that we dm's can see and know what you are doing, and we will act accordingly to what we see.

[Catastrophe]

edit long phone message is long

Get internet already.

[Kaybrie]

But it's a series of tubes!

[Cornuto]

What does joining the military have to do with being lawful?

[Root]

a soldier who never questions his orders are good examples of lawful neutral behavior[...]

Unless we're talking a strange military where not following orders is cool with the command and won't get you court-martialed / executed as an example. Quote is from the Sundren wiki, by the way.

Seriously, if joining the military and obeying your orders is chaotic enough that a barbarian could do it, how do Monks get away with doing anything but arranging paperclips in size order all day just to keep themselves Lawful?

When push comes to shove, you can, with some success, argue that any action fits any given alignment with the right person, circumstances, and variables.