Deity Question

[Chipmunk]

It's not about Human Morality. It's about divine morality, divine morality in a high-fantasy world with radically different perspectives on things to our own.

Even the writers of Dragon magazine, and indeed ,the creators of D&D have frequently admitted that the alignment system is extremely flawed, and that it's , in the end, just a matter of DM interpretation.

Which works entirely fine, when your DM is across the table from you, you can chat about things, and you know the person. On a PW, you lose all that. And then it's important to remember that alignments aren't what makes RP.

Play a follower of a deity, and toss the alignment out the window. Instead, go by their dogma, and the feeling you get with the deity. Continue on with that principle, and you'll soon find that alignments are superfluous, in the FR.

Also: Pretendy fun time.

If I come across as tense or serious - that's not how I feel I'm entirely chilled, with my legs up, enjoying a discussion.

[[DM] Grinning Death]

You all have it wrong on what is evil.

[Shedboy]

I am entirely in agreement with the whole notion of the Cosmic Standard of Good, and mental gymnastics not mattering.

Not having a go or anything, some good thoughts there, but, maybe a cosmic morality or standard is a myth.

Perhaps there is no absolute evil and no good. Cosmic karma a myth, a debarcle? To quote Han Solo :
“Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen *anything* to make me believe that there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. 'Cause no mystical energy field controls *my* destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.”

Man makes god in his own image as you can see this through the development of human society and the godform they worship: eg.
cavemen= elemental worship sun moon,
Agrarian societies have a pantheon worshiping wine, smithing, harvest, soldiers etc
Feudal Monarchy adopts the One true god (god =king symbology),
and in today’s society of plurality and individuality peoples relationship with god can be more personalised and individualised: the god within each, no god, or the “tasslehoff burfootification “ who always went on about being a personal friend of a Paladine.



I think Civs 4 simulators rightly describe religion (along with political structures) as a type of social technology that develops overtime and serves a purpose.



Religion is the opiate of the masses. It provides an explanation that quietens our intrinsic deep rooted unconscious psychological Fear of Death and the unknown. Why are we here?, where did we come from?, where are we going? And how should we live our lives? There is no absolute explanation in this world or the imaginary world of FR.



In FR deities are just super beings with “idealistic” portfolios who are ironically reliant upon the weakling mortals they serve for their continued power and existence. They all jiggle to Lord Ao who in turn answers to a higher authority.

Further, take psychopaths / sociopaths. It can be argued that they are amoral (vs evil). Many know the rules but do not feel many of the feelings we associate with good. They may be dead inside, have impulses and compunctions or some sort of disorder. Many may lead normal likes faking it. Those that do commit criminal acts may be after stimulation, attention or to feel powerful to avert the hollowness of existence they feel. Are they evil if they are incapable of feeling or knowing nurturance, empathy? Or are they just mentally ill – lacking in some way due to a missing part of a gene or environmental interaction.
Experiments show that people will follow authority doing things they would not normally do “Evil” things. Are they “evil” or just weak?
If someone falls down in the street and hurts themselves, the chance of a bystander helping is inversely related to the number of other bystanders etc.
What is evil and what is just human nature or human fallibility is rather debatable.
I see Mao along with other leaders were mentioned as evil. Is it no more than lions fighting for control of the pride... . Is it the sweeping tide of history that sparks the inevitable.. if not Mao, then someone else just as bad if the conditions are right. The actual expression of the travesty is a matter of style, but inevitable.



Not to put any religion down for its beliefs, and i hope i don't offend, educate me if i am wrong pls. The Judeo-Christian God is meant to be good isn’t he? He certainly brings it ON in the old testament engaging in widespread murder because the pharaoh won’t release the Jews from slavery. I always wonder how many innocent first born Egyptians died. Basically if you don’t do what He says then you will get smited, or stoned, or drowned (flood reset button), and if you’re really unlucky you get to seduce your dad after getting him drunk and propagate under the approving eye of God lol. That first testament all seems to be about survival.

[Doubtful]

Lets not take this into a real-world debate, especially about religion. Not unless we want a threadlocked flamewar with added bannings.

Keep it about in-game stuff.

[Doubtful]

Even the writers of Dragon magazine, and indeed ,the creators of D&D have frequently admitted that the alignment system is extremely flawed, and that it's , in the end, just a matter of DM interpretation.

It is a matter of DM interpretation, yes - It's one of those systems unfortunately!

The alignment system is flawed, yes, especially when it comes to restrictions (Barbarians can't live according to strict tribal rules and ancient traditions? WTF?) but things relating to alignment are a core part of the universe, removing the alignment system effectively removes the character from those events.

Alignment is a thumbnail, an unfocused rough guide to their underlying philosophy. It's not going to be a complex reflection of the inner workings of character Z's id.

If we remove alignment, then what happens to the main 'epic nonsense of good verses evil' (or order v disorder)? Do we start stripping out other elements that don't make sense according to our non-fantastical real-world views? Magic, that's hard to explain, it's out. Monsters? Tosh, bin 'em. d20 rolling-dice-in-a-room the RPG is where it's at.

It's part of our role as DMs to make (and be able to justify) decisions on things such as alignment based on the information we have available to use on events and from the rules, just the same as we are expected to be able to make calls on every thing else. This is where the 'Pretendy fun time' comment comes in (it wasn't a remark on things getting serious!); it is a judgement call, it isn't the end of the world. Sometimes it'll be spot on, sometimes not. The important thing is we stand by our decisions and have fun.

Alignment does get taken a little seriously sometimes. One of the biggest and most offensive outbursts I've ever received from a player (and also the only time I've ever booted someone from the server in anger) was in response to a 3 point alignment shift.

[Kaizen]

Alignment does get taken a little seriously sometimes. One of the biggest and most offensive outbursts I've ever received from a player (and also the only time I've ever booted someone from the server in anger) was in response to a 3 point alignment shift.

lol!

From what I've experienced, the alignment points have been handled pretty well on Sundren.

Except for that one time lollercide's Hano Fetton got 3 Chaotic points for saying "I'm afraid I can't allow that." because paladins are immune to fear and can't say 'i'm afraid'. hahahahahahaha

[DM_Acorn]

Well where is it written that DMs will not F with you?

[Darkened Skies]

I think I'll close this thread before it delves any deeper into the age old dead horse "how to play your alignment" topic.

[Doubtful]

Spoilsport.