Deity Question

[Darkened Skies]

That's because murder is the very pinacle expression of evil, Sari. That's the most severe of all the sins in every religion going

[Jonel]

I can think of much more evil things then death, but my moral compass would have to take a complete nose dive inorder to conduct them even in a game. But I still say the evil here is still to focused on killing, death and murder.

Love,

~Sari

[Doubtful]

You people are to focused on the murdering aspect of Evil.

Agreed! Lots...

That's because murder is the very pinacle expression of evil, Sari. That's the most severe of all the sins in every religion going

In our world, yes. But this is FR and their is a lot more evil that can be done. Murder is passe.

The context of actions and how they're reflected back at the world is ridicoulously important - as is paying attention to your deities Portfolios.

One of the most common 'evil' actions we see is the random murdering of people. Is that evil? To a degree. Does it serve all evil? No.

Dieties in FR gain their power from their Portfolios - the parts of the world they're in control of. They want their subjects to get out their and spread those portfolios, making them happen more and hopefully getting them some name dropping as well.

Bane for example gets his kicks from: Fear, Hatred and Tyranny. No mention of murder or death in there...

Randomly killing people in the name of Bane is pretty pointless (for a start it serves his enemy Cyric much better) sure, it spreads fear but not that much of it.

The dead are much like paladins - They don't fear. They're also pretty light on the whole hatred and Tyranny thing. If you're trotting out death/murder in the name of Bane then it needs to be at the end of your actions, not the actions wholesale.

Things like the Nipton Lottery in Fallout 3 (when done to towns who've resisted Banes will), taking peoples families to work in salt-mines (or whatever) if they show dissent, oppressive 'rules' and games (Today we have a prize for you all, villagers of Sestra. Our lord XX has deigned to pay you a visit to hear you sing your praises to Bane. He who's faith shines the brightest will be rewarded. He whose voice falters will have to throttle their true love. Don't mind the soldiers, they here to listen to you sing as well. Now, let's start with hymn 103...)


In short, murder doesn't really serve anyone but a select few deities in FR, it's the actions around them that do.

[Seheren]

Easy. Infant, altar, knife. There's very little in this world more evil than murdering children.

You know, a ways back I made a RP thread with my Cyrisist, and a few people were unhappy about it.

http://www.sundren.org/forum/showthr...146#post106146

[Darkened Skies]

Doubt, while you're correct that murder doesn't serve the deities of evil, that doesn't alter the fact that it is the deepest expression of evil (particularly when coupled first with torture as it generally is in Sundren - sadism ftw!).

None of the things you mentioned - despite the fact that they are more useful to their particular deities - are as "evil" as murder, whether personally or by proxy as in your "You'll have to throttle your true love" example (which is still murder as far as I'm concerned)

Though this is probably a moot point because every person's definitial of "evil" is a purely subjective topic and based on what it is that they personally fear most.

[Doubtful]

Meh, death is an end, or a release in the case of torture.

Let's also not forget this is an RP server - 'Lol! I kill u for Bane!' is pretty shitty rp. As a DM I'd rather see imaginative, thoughtful and insidious evil than another tedious and bland ganking of lowbies / NPCs by established toons.

Thankfully they did away with the god of lame and pointless deaths a while back. At least Cyric has a variety of other portfolios to be messing around with - You could be a pretty darned great Cyrical cleric without ever actually killing anyone yourself.

[DM_Sapphire_Phoenix]

Personally, I prefer the Slipping out of shadows, scare the hell out of people, and then disappear right back into them right before them. This not only scares the shyte out of most PCs but it also creates RP for hours and keeps PCs looking over their shoulders wondering if they will be getting a knife in the back or if they are simply let off the hook. In essense to be truely evil requires not that you kill, but it does require a replacement to killing.

But there is WAY to many "DIE FOR (insert God/Goddess name here)" and the Biggest issue I have with that form of thinking is that most people think that IS the only way to be evil, when there are so many other venues that have yet to be tapped to their full potential. And by promoting it as such, DD, you enforce that form of thinking. We want players to be more imaginative, intuitive, and such that they can do things that require not simple killing but provides an element of RP that IF killing is involved it is enjoyable to the person killed as well (to the extent that it can be enjoyable that is) and not only those who are doing the killing.

Love,

~Sapphire

[Darkened Skies]

DD, you enforce that form of thinking.

Assuming that you're talking to me, I'd like to point out that I've never at any point endorsed any particular play style. My point all along has been one of the most extreme ends of morality and the essence of "evil" itself.

We specifically moulded the PvP rules so that play in-fighting would be encouraged. I'm not about to penalise people for doing exactly what we wanted them to do, that would just be a little bit unfair. If people want to express their alignment by killing for whatever reason which isn't simply killing in itself, then I applaud them for not sitting staring endlessly into the campfire with the paladins bemoaning how bored they are in tells.

[BattlePixie]

follow Beshaba and then from the shadows you get to:
-push people down stairs or in front of carts in the street
-put mousetraps in bedroom slippers during the night
-hide that crutial piece of evidence before trial
-switch the sugar for salt
-mostly saw through one of the legs on a ladder or the axel of a cart before it leaves the gate
-put laxative in the beer kegs before the summer feast...

the possibilities are endless!

[Lucidity]

In our world, yes. But this is FR and their is a lot more evil that can be done. Murder is passe.

One of the most common 'evil' actions we see is the random murdering of people. Is that evil? To a degree. Does it serve all evil? No.

Agree 100%. For those who can't seem to spur that extra evil act.. Here's a little help to get that oomph you desire.

Lingering Effects of Evil

A Bad Feeling - This type of evil can mentally scar a person who experiences or watches a horrible event. It can leave a sinister mark in a location where some act of evil once occurred. Acts that can cause this degree include:

• A gruesome, bloodthirsty murder (obvious)
• The proclamation of a foul edict, such as one that mandates the murder of infants to keep a new kind from being born.
• A single sacrifice to an evil god or fiend.
• The animation of dozens of undead creatures.

A Lasting Evil - Evil events so great that they last for a long time are few and far between. This degree of evil requires true malice and intentionally committed foul deeds. Such include:

• Building an evil temple.
• Summoning multiple fiends.
• Multiple possessions of innocents.
• The long-term presence of an evil outsider on the Material Plane.

A Great and Powerful Malevolence - Only a few events involving this degree of evil exist in an entire world. These are events of true and terrible evil, which may include:

• Building a portal to the lower planes.
• The presence of an evil god walking the Material Plane.
• Committing daily multiple sacrifices over hundreds of years at an evil temple or altar.
• Bringing powerful fiends to an evil temple on the Material Plane.

Last, but not least..

Darkness Like The World Has Never Seen Before! - Generally unique in all the world, such an event scars the nature of reality. Such a scar will probably never heal. The worst of all fell events might include:

• An act of genocide.
• The birth of an evil god.
• The murder of a god, demigod, or legendary hero of light.

__________________________________________________ _______________

As you can see, plain murder falls into the lowest category. Randomly murdering targets seems, to me anyways, less evil and more psychotic than anything. Psychosis doesn't always mean evil; remember that. I could play a completely psychotic character who enjoys urinating in the town fountain, but that wouldn't make my character evil per se.

There are multiple types of villains - it all just matters which one you'd like to play. There's the boorish thug; the crude, selfish simpleton who just takes what he wants. There's also the tyrant; the classic power-mad individual who craves control over all he/she sees. We also have the scheming liar; the political manipulator who use others to accomplish their goals.

Other examples include the psychopath (the evil, intentionally malevolent side of psychosis), the sophisticate, the misguided fool, the monster, and the unexpected villain, just to name a few. Hopefully this provides some clarity and ideas!

References: Cook, M. (2002). The Book of Vile Darkness. Renton, WA: Wizards of the Coast.

[Redjack]

Ah you don't know how many times I would love to do some evil deed other then killing. Nothing beats a good plot and manipulation of your enemies. But the game engine is geared towards combat and that is often what happens.
Common scenario: Bad guy walks down the road towards the campfire. Crowd at the fire sees bad guy and a cry of alarm goes out. Bad guy says hello, good guys say stick it in your ear. Shields start going up, swords are drawn and magic starts flashing back and forth. Soon the bad guy stands alone or is back at the fugue again. Repeat several times different days. It just happens. Is it bad RP? Or just spontaneous reaction to a situation?

[Lucidity]

Probably just spontaneous reaction, unless you're of high notoriety and it's blatantly obvious you're evil.

The only exception I could see is if someone could magically detect evil, which not many have access to.

As for playing lone wolf or fugue inhabitant.. Hate to say it, but being dastardly comes with the territory, it seems. Your best bet would be to not play the blatant villain, but instead something more along the lines of a cunning, devious misanthrope under the guise of something much more pleasant.

The best victims are those who are completely unaware of their own demise.

[Seheren]

I think beyond the known Vampires, Verror Tehk ((When active)) was probably the most blatant Villain around. He managed to keep himself in one piece, spreading the 'good' word and being evil in so many ways without Murder. Its not that no one does it, because I know of those who do/have, its that you only hear about the fights.

[OnyxTigress]

I think beyond the known Vampires, Verror Tehk ((When active)) was probably the most blatant Villain around. He managed to keep himself in one piece, spreading the 'good' word and being evil in so many ways without Murder. Its not that no one does it, because I know of those who do/have, its that you only hear about the fights.

Varsick was (and is) pretty well known as well.

[greypawn]

Varsick was (and is) pretty well known as well.

Shhh you!

I am trying to keep a low profile so I can come back and kill everybody while screaming about how great Bane is. I'll probably aim for all of Doubt's NPCs first. And maybe Hoar followers because they are lame and probably really love Cyric anyways. *fist bumps Black Hand players then skips off*

Varsick was always suppose to be a fanatical.