Social Skill Counters - How about this?

[GodBeastX]

I liked this for intimidate so I was thinking it could just apply to everything:

Bluff DC = d20 + Hit Dice (Level) + Wisdom Modifier
Diplomacy DC = d20 + Hit Dice (Level) + Int Modifier
Intimidate = d20 + Hit Dice (Level) + Fear Saves
Taunt = d20 + Hit Dice (Level) + Charisma (Self Confidence?)

What do you guys think?

[goodblood]

The intimidate one is especially clever

[Red Monkey]

Yup

Though about it.
I like it, simple and makes sense.

[CrimsonTears]

Heh personally I would rather a substitute skill was used in place of HD/level. Else, there will be people spending tons of points in skills and the ones resisting just have to play normally and level. The difference between two people of the same level will usually be around +1-5, evening it "for free" on the resisiting side. Maybe the skill resist itself *shrugs* It would keep cross-class skills still pertinent to it too.

Diplomacy I think doesn't really needs a roll. It's not charm person, and no matter how much your words make sense, if someone doesn't wants to listen they won't listen

[GodBeastX]

I think diplomacy needs a counter, because it's logic being dropped on someone's face. It's like sitting in front of a court of law, trying to plead your case, you may not know what to say OOC, but the roll helps us to determine how logical you are against a room full of logic critics.

I might make it level / 2 though... Skill counters just, are yucky and unbalance things. Intimidate's counter is from the book I believe so that would stay like that no matter what.

Also, you gotta remember, we will have items to boost these skills in game, so someone who already has 23 bluff and gets a + 6 from an item or something, would have no trouble lying to experienced people

[CrimsonTears]

I see your point about diplomacy if it's used in a case where two sides are trying to expose different views of a situation to someone else. That's really great and goes with the idea of the skill for sure. I just think about the people that roll Diplomacy andthink of it as some kind of pseudo-charm person, expecting you to do what they suggest because of it. If someone does that to me I'll ignore the use of the skill, for exemple

Intimidate is right (the HD thing) and works fine. Someone who has been around and fought a lot won't be that easily intimidate just because the half-orc is big Level / 2 would be fairer, but I will still be annoying and insist on the skill point expenditure... it should come from both sides

Items giving skill bonus will come and that's great But I'm thinking about the lower end of the level spectrum, where every single point counts and every skill point you drop in a social skill might mean "sacrificing" a skill more useful in dealing with the game engine hehe. People going for social skills will be making that sacrifice for RP sake, while others get a freebie.

Maybe implement Sense Motive? =P Heheh...

[Guywise]

I like it. And heres why. I have never played DnD. And all I know is ya have beat a number. People tell me to make rolls. I roll what ever and they tell me what happens. I ask the question what did I have beat and they give me this long explanation of I get +10 because its a day ending in y. -2 cause its an odd day etc. My big example. So I think ok if I'm trying to sneek past someone I mak a hide and Move silent roll. And the person I tryin to sneek by makes spot and listen roll or vice versa. Just some info cause I been told I don't what I'm talking about(when I ask for a roll) but it seems somewhat straight forward. To me any way.

[GodBeastX]

I'm reluctant to implement sense motive, cuz then it's another point taken away from other places that were already balanced with the skill set in mind. Do we add another skill point on level up for everyone then? Or do their points they have just get stretched more thinly?

[CrimsonTears]

No no no! The skill points just get stretched more thinly.
Think about it, in PnP people would get the exact same amount of skill points but have over a dozen Knowledges instead of a single stupid Lore, dozens of Crafts, Performances, Languanges, Sense Motive, Rope Use and others.

The skill set had in mind people spreading skill points over many relevant skills, not picking 3 mechanicaly good ones and keeping them at the max

With a quest system, that would become even more so invaluable actually. Having Knowledge (Religion) instead of "Lore" would show you really know about religion, not about some ephemeral concept that allows half-orcs to know about pit fiends if they roll high

I'm all for implementing all the skills, really

[Dark presence]

I don't really like the idea. I really don't see any actual solution, myself. Even sense motive is a very bad solution to many situations.
The conversation skills were never really meant to be used on PCs, and I really only use them to give a bit of force to what my PC says. If people ignore it, fine. If not, fine.

But to say there is a constant DC for every situation just doesn't fly.
The bluff DC for "Theres a dragon behind you!" should be much different from "Theres a guard behind you!" depending on all sorts of things, like are you in a dragon cave or a city? A tiny room in a house or a wide open field?
Diplomacy too, if someone friggen hates your guts, you should need a much higher DC for diplomacy than if they like you, and a different DC if they don't know you at all.

[Zoberraz]

I support Dark presence's opinion. I think the skills used should just have a DC that the opposing player can agree to.

For example, Drashan Farlight tried to seduce Maia once. Managing a DC 20 while flirting with someone ought to elicit a favorable response. Just the same, managing DC 35 ought to elicit a much better reaction too... or at least I just felt like considering them so. I know MisterDeady just makes the skill rolls and trusts me to make decisions according to my character because he knows I don't play Maia as the perfect MarySue character that must never fail or must be perfect in all respects.

I really think it should be he same with others. If you don't like the way some characters interact with your conversatrional skill, nothing forces you to have to roleplay with them exclusively - you can always go away for greener pastures (or fairer roleplayers). *shrugs*

[GodBeastX]

The thing is, other than diplomacy, they WERE meant to be used on other players. Hence the sense motive skill. People aren't supposed to just "Pick and choose" what they want to ignore. It's still up to you how you react to the failed DC.

Maybe if someone tries to seduce you and you fail, you could reply with "Look, I ain't going to lie, you're attractive (Failied roll), but you're just an ass and a piece of shit, so Maybe if you grow up..." and there you go. This also helps people gauge how effective they really are. I see people going "Omg! You rolled a natural 20! That warrants something for your skill roll." Ummm, a natural 20 on a bluff with a -1 bluff is not a good roll Natural 20's aren't automatic successes with skills.

In the end it's all about what works well for people around you, but I think random people popping up and you roll a bluff and they want to seriously counter it, then this helps to have a technical way to do it that nobody can just say "Screw you, I told a lie, you must obey my lie!"

[Sathayorn]

Just some thoughts I have on this.

Wouldn't wisdom help more against taunt? In order to not act stupid? Meh, its only ever existed in NWN.

Doesnt Diplomacy work much like a table? Other things would factor in, an opposed roll really doesn't seem to make sense with this. And the opposed roll makes diplomacy far too easy, expecially if a skill focus is taken.

Bluff rolls for minor lies seems a little pointless as well, unless the person has good reason to believe you to be a liar, it only makes you look suspicious rolling bluff 15 times a minute and draws attention away from RP, expecially when it is made as an opposed roll.

Intimidate... You made it a little impossible to intimidate there. It's supposed to be opposed to "HD + Wis Mod + Modifiers on save vs fear", how you had it worded it was "HD + will save vs fear". And yes, Intimidating a paladin is rather pointless.

[GodBeastX]

YEah, +fear saves. Most people have only wisdom.

[Soulbadguy]

No one should feel obligated to accept someones rolls.. if some player plops a skill roll on yah.. you don't have to counter..

If someone says.. "hey there is a dragon behind you!" Rolls Bluff: 10 + modifier 50 = 60


You still shouldn't feel obligated to make a check. Its your character. There are people who always make skill rolls. Personally I pick an choose according to my character.

These skill checks and DC are just ways to help people RP for certain situations.

IMO I don't like when people throw out rolls as a player. When I DM i really ignore player rolls unless I ask for them or the player asks me if they can make a roll. I don't know everyones character so if they think they have the skill for something..ask.. I won't ignore yah.. . But just openly busting out skill rolls is too much on my head.. Im a dude.. I don't like multitasking..

I don't recall Dm'ng PNP and someone just says.. Im rolling to bluff this guy. *shakes hand and rolls the d20* Usually they ask saying.. " Can i try to bluff this guy? " or the DM will just say.. " Make a bluff check"

you can even RP it out.. * Looks around trying to find ambushers* I may or may not say.. *roll spot check* I may just say you found something.. depending on the situation..

My point is .. these rolls are for certain situations. Not for everytime someone busts out a skill roll on you..

Again... you don't have to feel obligated.. just RP how your character would react to it.