Well, there went the spleen.

[Waverider10]

To clarify:

Its not a true instant death tactic... more traps stacked = more damage done save or not (unless the target has evade which could save the target from any damage).

BedlamX - I think the game mechanics actually does take in some realism. As was said... if there were 20 traps set then there would be 20 spot chances rolls every 6 seconds(?). If one failed then the player sees the trap and hopefully avoids it instead of walking over it. So a player using the search mode (aka like your troops) should have a reasonable chance to detect them especially if they've trained search.

I don't know how many people who aren't rogues/rangers put points into search. I know I always put in a few points into it no matter what class I am. So I think the real threat is to melee types... most likely fighters.

However, this is a RP server... the trap tactic doesn't really provide much chance to RP. If it was me (being the trapping assassin), I'd maybe send a death letter or something. Something to at least make the target paranoid. Or I'd make sure they could get resurrected. Not really in the spirit of chaotic evil but I think you have to balance that line of evil vs griefing/non-rp.

[Ebannon]

Thanks for the link. Like I said...never used traps in this game.

Now, the list it shows makes this stacking bit even more troubling to me, though. In theory, a trapper could stack a butt-load of traps of varying types and cause multiple saves to be made against each save type (reflex, fort, and will) and even a no save if a holy trap is used. With that spread, the chances of failing multiple saves is increased quite a bit as it will eventually cause a few rolls on the low save. And at upwards of 150 points of damage for some of them, 2 or 3 fails out of 20 isn't that hard to believe and will kill most toons with lower CON scores and low-to-mid HP base numbers (might even take out a high HP base class like fighters and barbarians depending on the damage rolls). Not to mention the fact that, unless you walk everywhere buffed to the hells, a trap stack hits you while not in combat and with no PvP warning. That makes the victim even more vulnerable to failing multiple saves (unlike most of the spells which are usually cast when in combat). I know Ursus has taken 110 points from a fire trap in the Mossdale before. Just a couple of those and he's a gonner. I would imagine non-dwarf, non-fighter types would be in a similar boat (or even worse).

Oh...if you happen to spot the trap, is there a way to know it is a stack? If not, then this is an even more broken mechanic of the engine and should be looked at with more scrutiny. It's total BS if you spot the trap, see that it is whatever type, buff yourself to survive setting it off (cuz you do not want to leave it for some, porr newb to trip and die), set it off and die from the other 19 traps you couldn't see even if you had spotted them. No idea how this works, cuz I have never seen a ton of them stacked.

I know that fire trap in the Mossdale is epic level -- no PC is going to be using one of those (it's got like a DC 40 to disarm, 50 to recover -- Logan's got maxed disable device and it registers at impossible level when he examines it.). The highest available to purchase in the game is average, and a skilled trapper can recover some types of deadly traps from dungeons (others have DCs way too high).

The deterrent against stacking multiple average level traps is the fact that they cost like 300-600 a piece.

The problem is unless you stack a trap, the best a single average or deadly trap is going to do is alert the person you're trying to kill that you're there and after them. At which point you either run like hell or watch them toss on sneak immunity, eternalness, and whatever other "I win" spells they have.

Without stacking, traps are only slightly more useful than poison currently is (which is not at all).

EDIT: BTW, traps are detected with Search, not spot.

[Waverider10]

It's total BS if you spot the trap, see that it is whatever type, buff yourself to survive setting it off (cuz you do not want to leave it for some, porr newb to trip and die), set it off and die from the other 19 traps you couldn't see even if you had spotted them. No idea how this works, cuz I have never seen a ton of them stacked.

This to me doesn't make RP sense. I understand the need to prevent newbie death but walking through a trap... stacked or not... doesn't fly RP wise in my opinion. Now if you didn't see it... different story.

Its kindof like saying your troops spotted a trap in a house and sent a fully armored person in to set it off to protect the mailman who might trip it later. Reality is you disarm it using a specialist aka rogue type. Slows down the game a bit but adds to RP in my opinion and may actually give a place to a "good" rogue RP.

and yeah... to stack traps will cost lots of cash!!!

[Waverider10]

EDIT: BTW, traps are detected with Search, not spot.

Bah... yeah my bad i changed it.

[BedlamX]

Its kindof like saying your troops spotted a trap in a house and sent a fully armored person in to set it off to protect the mailman who might trip it later. Reality is you disarm it using a specialist aka rogue type. Slows down the game a bit but adds to RP in my opinion and may actually give a place to a "good" rogue RP.

Actually...this analogy doesn't work well due to the fact that, given that scenario, you can trip a known trap from a "safe" distance. Something you simply can not do in game. This is a typical EOD move outside a populated area or building, by the way (find it, pack it, blow it in place). And, typically, one trap will set off the other in real life. Not sure this would happen in game...never tried disarming one in a stack.

EDIT: Sorry...didn't see the "in a house" part. You could call in specialists...if you have any. And they could cordon off the area while they waited for the best guy for the job. Not really a possibility in the game. Too few rogues and too few "police" to cordon off the area.

Taking serach, if you aren't a rogue or ranger, is quite difficult to be able to do anything else. When you only get 2-4 skill points per level, the necessity skills for each class outweigh the need for search. Especially if you want to try a PRC down the road. A noticing a trap has a DC over 20, your typical fighter type has to roll a 20 to see it. A typical cleric would be slightly less due to the high wisdom. But again I have to ask...do you see any of the traps other than the top/first one you see? If it only shows one, a good trapper would put at least one weak trap out to catch the attention and let the more powerful ones stay hidden in the stack. A weak tangle spell wouldn't stop many people in an open, non-combat area. With its low DC save and no real damage, lots of people would just trip it to get rid of it.

Back on damage from traps, most toons do not have evasion. This means they will take at least 1/2 damage from EVERY trap in the stack. Sorry...even at 1/2 damage from 20 traps, chances are, you gonna die (and a HIGH chance at that). So, while there is a chance (no matter how slim) the target may survive, saying the stack is not an instant death "attack" is back to semantics. There is a chance to survive just about any insta-death spell, too. Still considered an insta-death attack.

[Cornuto]

"... you can trip a known trap from a "safe" distance. Something you simply can not do in game."

On a previous server I Sacrified quite a few wolves to the god of traps by casting summon creature I on a known trap. There is always a way.

[BedlamX]

If you happen to have that spell memorized :P

[Cornuto]

Toss a pet chicken on it then.

[Waverider10]

Actually...this analogy doesn't work well due to the fact that, given that scenario, you can trip a known trap from a "safe" distance. Something you simply can not do in game. This is a typical EOD move outside a populated area or building, by the way (find it, pack it, blow it in place). And, typically, one trap will set off the other in real life. Not sure this would happen in game...never tried disarming one in a stack.

Heh... Never say you can't. I believe familiars can be used in such a manner.

Even if there aren't PC rogues around to do it, I'm sure the local police (aka DM) have a guy. It might even start a detective style RP story line... Its all about the RP.

Honestly, I'm with keeping it as is the more I think about it. The cost/time to setup a 20 trap spot on the map is a bit intensive. They're fairly easy to spot if a player is careful enough and as long as it doesn't break the grieving rules and there is a RP reason

[Waverider10]

Toss a pet chicken on it then.

20 sonic traps on a chicken... that's a lot of feathers to clean up.

"Death by Stereo"

[nezzerscape]

I would say it is ok to stack... it stinks and my toons would get killed but think it is fare. Ideally some RP would be added.

One could say they just used a bigger charge with one trigger.

[Intrepid42]

The wiki rules used to explicitly state that stacking traps was not allowed:

http://www.sundren.org/wiki/index.ph...did=5123#Traps

It was changed by PL late 2009 to the current stated trap rules.

http://www.sundren.org/wiki/index.php?title=Rules#Traps

I do not know if this was a deliberate staff decision.

My personal view is that traps should be stackable, if acquiring them takes substantial coin/effort, and if the detection chance applies per trap. I believe rogues deserve a bit of love, and that people don't fear traps or value trap skills as much as they should. I would feel different if it was, for example, a cleric ability.

[Torgar]

DM EDIT: Keep the discussion regarding the validity of tactics and not about complaints of specific instances of PvP. That is not for the public boards. If you've a complaint in that regard make it a help request or PM staff for assistance.

- Cornuto.

Also: You have no risk of being perma-killed from a PvP death from traps (or no increased risk above a normal PvP death.) The script to auto-raise just doesn't detect it as a PvP death (it's also a problem with several custom spells).

[Torgar]

Cornuto is right, and I diverged form my original intention of the thread. The RP aspects of what happened are not important, so lets all try to stay on the topic of the validity of stacking of traps. I do apologize for my divergence.

[Anrilor]

there is one thing that I do have to say about this, think of setting multiple traps in one area like setting many charges with one trip wire, only RP thing to think about at that point is where do you hide the 20 deadly charges? hiding a few is plausible in some areas but more then that its like your making a mine field with a single trip wire. its just not plausible in my mind.