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  • Games and Referees

    Some of you may know that I'm an avid soccer player. I wanted to share a recent game with you because I think it's relevant to some current issues we're seeing turn up.

    Last Sunday, we had a play off game for my co-ed rec team. We were really evenly matched against the other squad, but it certainly felt like we were dominating possession of the ball. It was enjoyable because it was competitive, but friendly.

    The other team had a corner kick about 20 minutes through the game. The ball was served beautifully and went right across the center of the goal box. Fortunately for us, everyone missed the thing, and it dribbled out harmlessly to the sideline. Unfortunately for us, one of those missed kicks from the opponent wound up in the gut of our goalkeeper -- and the referee didn't see it.

    As our goalkeeper writhed on the ground dry heaving, I jogged over to the referee. As captain, I felt the player was wreckless. It wasn't intentional, but it was dangerous as hell and should have been called. I let the referee have it for completely missing the event. I called the player out that hurt our goalie, calling him dirty and wreckless. Needless to say, neither of them were pleased. I sure as hell wasn't.

    I spend the remainder of the half giving little jibs to the ref and nitpicking every missed call in my eyes. I shouted instructions to our players that made not-so-subtle digs at the aggressive, wreckless player. I toed the line very tightly between what was acceptable and what would have earned a yellow card.

    Our goalkeeper was fine eventually, but he took me aside at half time and told me to just shut up. He was OK, but he was sick of hearing me go on and on about an issue that had already been ruled on. No matter how right I was, the call had been made. Move on and play the game. He was right too -- I wasn't having any fun at that point and was spending all of my emotions dwelling on that event.

    Second half, I talked quietly to the other player and apologized. He told me he felt bad about it, it was a total accident, and he felt guilty. After the game, I talked to the ref, who also said he felt badly about missing the call. But, he had to keep the game going and could only rule on what he saw. The second half was a lot more fun for me and our team because I was able to let it go, and in the end, I was able to talk things out without the heat and drama of the game.



    DMs are like referees in many ways. We're here to give role play some structure and make judgements, among other things. There are going to be times players will disagree with a judgement call -- judgements can be very subjective! Heck, there will be times you flat out KNOW you are right and the DM is wrong. I know these situations can be frustrating.

    It's OK to explain yourself to the DM once and plead your case. But once the judgement is made, players need to accept it and move on, for the sake of the event, and for the sake of everyone's fun. It's OK to send a PM afterwards, too -- things can always be ret-conned, and nothing is permanent in a made-up world. We are reasonable people and will do our best to explain the decision or change it.

    But, ranting during an event over the DM channel during an event is not a good way to handle it when you don't like a decision. Some of our events require a lot of player management -- 20 players at once isn't easy! If we miss something in chat, be forgiving. Don't harp on the same point over and over, flooding the chat please.

    Likewise, dwelling on an issue, even subtly, is no fun for anyone. I can recall seeing players dwell on a 3-point chaotic alignment shift six months after it was given out -- six months! -- in posts that resurfaced alignment issues but weren't directly referencing the event. Please don't continue harping on issues once things have been decided. Accept it and move on to the next part of the game.

    Like I said, we aren't going to get everything right, but keeping the game going is more important. And of utmost importance is fun -- for us, as well as you. Spending your efforts shouting at the refs will only ruin the game.

    Pearls of wisdom from the old man
    "Microsoft has to move the Reply All button further away from the Reply button. It's the computer equivalent of putting the vagina so close to the sphincter."
    -Bill Maher

  • #2
    That anecdote would have been much more interesting if you punched the ref, then flying armbarred the other player.

    But I agree with the moral: Shut the hell up and roll with decisions made by the IG gods.
    Sago Trumperstomper--Halfling Bandit (retired)
    Hraligar Brittlefist--Dwarven Superiority Advocate
    Kraz't Goretusk--Goretusk Tribe Chieftan

    Comment


    • #3
      On the contrary Paul, from my time on the server I've found that the DM's like hearing other people's opinions. PL is not saying be quiet and obey, but conduct a conversation with himself and the DM team with respect, that's all.

      So, shutting up would be somewhat counterproductive.

      However, we are all human and make mistakes like yelling at the ref for too long. It's easy enough in an electronic environment to lose sight of the fact there is another person at the other end of the screen. I think PL was simply trying to convey to hold fast to the golden rule, and treat others how you wish to be treated. DM or not.
      Characters:
      Peridan Twilight, one-eyed dog of the Legion, deceased.
      Daniel Nobody, adventurer and part time problem solver.

      [DM] Poltergeist :
      If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge an intermediate deity's unbridled fury.

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      • #4
        So sayeth the legionnaire!
        Lorlen Locke: "Amazing how the righteous commit acts of tyranny and terror almost as beautiful as our own under their banner of "good". We merely call a spade a spade."

        "If you can't learn to do something well, learn to enjoy doing it poorly."

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        • #5
          Totally agree. It isn't fun for anyone, even the person complaining so it's better to let it pass and move on. It is also appreciated by everyone if people admit to thier mistakes or apologise for thier actions. Well said PL, but the sport is called football.
          Originally posted by Lollercide
          Not even Ilmater would suffer Dune and Mach's wrath for us.

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          • #6
            Aw I know, I wish it was called football here too. It would make more sense, wouldn't it?

            PS -- I'm going to see AC Milan in a friendly next week! Exciting!
            "Microsoft has to move the Reply All button further away from the Reply button. It's the computer equivalent of putting the vagina so close to the sphincter."
            -Bill Maher

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Peridan View Post
              On the contrary Paul, from my time on the server I've found that the DM's like hearing other people's opinions. PL is not saying be quiet and obey, but conduct a conversation with himself and the DM team with respect, that's all.

              So, shutting up would be somewhat counterproductive.

              However, we are all human and make mistakes like yelling at the ref for too long. It's easy enough in an electronic environment to lose sight of the fact there is another person at the other end of the screen. I think PL was simply trying to convey to hold fast to the golden rule, and treat others how you wish to be treated. DM or not.
              Agreed-but after expressing your piece, shut the hell up and carry on
              Sago Trumperstomper--Halfling Bandit (retired)
              Hraligar Brittlefist--Dwarven Superiority Advocate
              Kraz't Goretusk--Goretusk Tribe Chieftan

              Comment


              • #8
                One of these threads... *Sigh*

                I'll put it like this guys. This is the honest to goodness truth.

                If at any point you are getting frustrated while playing Sundren you are doing something wrong. It's really that simple.

                For people who need more clarity than that, which I hope nobody does, I'll put it to you in more details which are prone to error or misinterpretation.

                Since this happens to be about DMs and players then I'll speak on it from someone who has both been a player and been DM. DMs are the lords and masters of the world. They aren't lords and masters so they can abuse people, control people, single out people, or whatever, no, they are lords and masters because SOMEONE has to solve every disagreement to keep the game moving. It's like the owner of a business. Maybe his decisions aren't always making the top dollar or the best employee relations, but they are his decisions on how to run his business. Even if he makes the wrong decision it is the right decision. What I'm saying is, even if a DM is wrong, they are right for the simple fact that the decision becomes the rules.

                Now, I've said the hardcore part, let me speak on the morality part. I challenge anyone on the forums to come up with a DM's call that is truly malicious in intent. Nobody is sitting in DM heaven plotting any players' ruination. We take on new DMs from among players all the time. They can tell you first hand nobody is. Even the players who are often disgruntled. There's more than a couple players on Sundren that you can pretty much expect to be the first person to go OOC can talk about how messed up a DM decision is. Our DMs come from various backgrounds, personalities, even philosophies on how to best handle the server, and yet the same players will often cause trouble for a wide variety of DMs. Is that the DMs or the player?

                I personally wouldn't have acted like PL did at that soccer game. For me I'm more "Whatever happens just happens". If you really can't say that and be alright, "Whatever happens just happens" then you honestly should ask yourself why can't you say that? Why is it you are so against just going with a decision and seeing the outcome?

                Many of you come from online games, not P&P. PWs aren't designed to be 100% even gameplay for every character where online games are. Online games make sure that if betty spent X time getting where she is, Bob is going to spend about the same time. The reason online games are is because they take away the elements of a player having any bearing on the world so they don't have to deal with disgruntled players on the level RP brings.

                On a PW, you can't expect every call to be happily in your favor, sometimes they'll be totally against you, even if you think deep down you are correct. You might even have real world evidence to back up whatever claims you have, but in the end, the only decision that should be law is the DM's, even if that DM is a total newb idiot.

                As for favoritism, people are going to have favorites. It's the nature of a social environment to say "Hey, this guy/girl is really cool". My favorites are ALWAYS the people who don't worry about outcomes from things and just go with the flow, being as friendly and inclusive as they can be. I love the players who especially try to draw other players into things. There's not a happier moment for me than when I lay out a quest for a player and they take the initiative to go gather up others, especially people they never really interact with, just to get more people involved.

                People know they're my favorites, not because I hand them gear (because I don't) or because I'm leveling them up fast (Because I'm not), but because when they say "Yo GBX!" I go "Sup dude?". Since I pretty much like everybody on the server, I guess you can all pat yourselves on the back

                I love to run events mainly for three types of people. One, people I know will include others and bring fun to the majority of people, two, people who have interesting characters and will take initiative playing off the events in their own way from their character's view, and three, people who randomly get involved in plots I just start on a whim because they happen to be standing there (This one happens the most )

                The people I loathe to run events for are people who I have to worry if I'm going to be offending and get an earful of hate and malice, people whose only reaction to an event is a *nod*, people who value their characters over the server as a whole (They usually lead to the first group), and people who kiss up to me. In fact, people who kiss up to me can expect me to avoid them all together I don't reward ass kissing. Fortunately this hasn't happened in a good year, so I'm okay with that. Finally, I don't like running events for people whose hand I have to hold through every step of the event. I'm sorry for people who are struggling, but the worst message I can get during an event where you have all the power to shape it and make it what you want is this:

                "Hey, GBX, what should I be doing?"

                My only reply I should ever have to say to that is:

                "Hell if I know. You're the character, what do you WANT to do?"

                I rarely ever plan anything past the initial 5 minutes of the event which is generally just introducing a circumstance and players taking it upon themselves.

                Now and then I have to make a ruling. Now and then something I have to decide might quite possibly hurt your feelings, but 99 out of 100 times the reason I made the decision is well thought out and takes into account much information and aspects that you might not have considered as a player. The other 1 out of 100 is either because I'm drunk at the time (Sorry) or I have sleepy brains because it's 5am and for some reason I'm still DMing

                So in summary, if you're really getting upset about DMs or gameplay decisions often, the fault is 99% likely yourself. Unless you catch me in one of my 1 out of 100 times. At least I still try to be friendly when I'm drunk ^^

                And yes, I'm anti-cliques. It's part of the reason I don't like housing systems in PWs, it just encourages the same people to go behind closed doors and shut out the rest of the server.

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                • #9
                  *sucks up to GBX*

                  That's good, right?
                  I got one leg missin'
                  How do I get around?

                  One Leg Missin'
                  Meet the Feebles

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                  • #10
                    That's it, take it like a truck stop hooker. Who's your daddy?
                    "Microsoft has to move the Reply All button further away from the Reply button. It's the computer equivalent of putting the vagina so close to the sphincter."
                    -Bill Maher

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Phantom Lamb View Post
                      That's it, take it like a truck stop hooker. Who's your daddy?
                      Sometimes you worry me PL...
                      I got one leg missin'
                      How do I get around?

                      One Leg Missin'
                      Meet the Feebles

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Machiavelli View Post
                        *sucks up to GBX*

                        That's good, right?
                        The way you do it?

                        Always... *misty eyed*


                        Edit: Dammnit! To slow.
                        It is the greatest of all mistakes to do nothing because you can only do a little - Do what you can.
                        Sydney Smith.

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                        • #13
                          S'Okay Doubtful, I got this for ya!
                          I got one leg missin'
                          How do I get around?

                          One Leg Missin'
                          Meet the Feebles

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